Proper Engine Torque Strut Alignment

7654800neon
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Post by 7654800neon » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:11 pm

I loosened all the bolts and my motor doesn't move at all and I have really bad vibration between 1500 and 3000 a little at idle driving me crazy my clutch went out so while I had the transmission out I replaced the middle mount and trans mount put new axles in and the torque struts are new

NickKo
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Post by NickKo » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:19 pm

7654800neon wrote:I loosened all the bolts and my motor doesn't move at all and I have really bad vibration between 1500 and 3000 a little at idle driving me crazy my clutch went out so while I had the transmission out I replaced the middle mount and trans mount put new axles in and the torque struts are new
When you say you 'replaced the middle mount'.... Are you talking about the one in the framerail, on the passenger side ??
OR are you talking about the motor mount assembly (with the tensioner) on the engine itself ??


- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009

7654800neon
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Post by 7654800neon » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:45 pm

I replaced the one in the frame well and the transmission one

NickKo
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Post by NickKo » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:38 pm

7654800neon wrote:I replaced the one in the frame well and the transmission one
Did you check the adjustment for the top motor mount ??
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t36/ ... 8e1406.gif

Even if you did this already, I'd go back and check it again.
It is possible, that it may have slipped.

My motor mount bracket that bolts to the strut tower (denoted by 'B' in the picture / link above) was damaged....the 'slot' underneath the strut bracket, that holds the bolt hex in place, had gotten 'rounded out' somehow - leaving it useless.

I replaced the strut tower bracket, with one I pulled from a junkyard, and it has been fine.


- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009

7654800neon
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Post by 7654800neon » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:52 pm

yea ive checked it a bunch but ill check the bracket and see if mine is rounded out or messed up

Mike89
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Post by Mike89 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:34 pm

Don't know if I missed it but what year Dodge Neons does the 119mm measurement apply to?

I have a 2001 Dodge Neon. I replaced the top, middle, and bottom motor mounts. Now I have a bad vibration I never had before even though the old mounts were shot (top and bottom mounts rubber was completely severed, old center mount still looked good). I almost wish I had never done it cause I have way more vibration with the new mounts than I did with the old worn out ones. The only mount I haven't replaced is the transmission mount. The vibration is when putting the car in gear, and driving (though less at driving). In gear (at stand still) I can actually see the steering vibrating. Completely sucks, make me want to junk this thing.

Anyway after finding and reading this thread I took the measurement and it was around 116mm. I did as instructed here and re-adjusted it to 119mm. The procedure was actually not too hard. Didn't even have to jack up the car to remove pencil strut and loosen bottom mount bolt. Engine moved easier than I expected. After tightening everything it was still 119mm so nothing slipped. Vibration is still there although it seems to be a little less.

Comments and/or suggestions?

moe8555
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Post by moe8555 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:17 am

I'm in the same boat as you, although my vibration doesn't sound as bad as yours. It isn't at the level where "I'd want to junk it."

The only thing it could possibly be as far as I know is poor quality motor mounts. My alignment also checked out...

What brand mounts did you buy?

Mike89
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Post by Mike89 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:20 am

I got mine at O'Reilly auto parts. Lifetime Guarantee. Junking it was an exaggeration but it is irritating.

moe8555
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Post by moe8555 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:24 am

From what I read in these forums, most Chinese mounts are garbage - especially "Anchor" brand.

occasional demons
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Post by occasional demons » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:19 am

119mm applies to all 2000 to 2005 neons.

Short of getting it to idle a little higher, it is probably going to shake a bit more with an ATX in gear. If the aftermarket mounts are a little harder rubber, they are going to transmit more vibration too.

IDK if there is anything like the early EFI systems that raised the idle slightly when in gear. That in itself can be annoying at times too. It could be done by tapping into the PS switch, but setting it up at the shifter may be a bit tricky.

You may need to push it into neutral when stopping on slick surfaces, but then you should do that anyways. More of a RWD thing, but it also helps for FWD.
Bill
Olha Koba, a psychologist in Kyiv, said that “anger and hate in this situation is a normal reaction and important to validate.” But it is important to channel it into something useful, she said, such as making incendiary bombs out of empty bottles.
2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
2021 Forester

Mike89
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Post by Mike89 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:56 pm

I looked on Oreilly's website where I bought the mounts and turns out I do have the "Anchor" mounts (that's all they sell) that I've read do have more vibrations. Oreilly's usually has quality parts so I went with them. Looks like now I'm stuck with what I have. Short of replacing the mounts again, I guess I have to live with it and hope as they wear, they get better.

occasional demons
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Post by occasional demons » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:14 pm

Considering the Mopar mounts are ~$400 for the full set now....
Bill
Olha Koba, a psychologist in Kyiv, said that “anger and hate in this situation is a normal reaction and important to validate.” But it is important to channel it into something useful, she said, such as making incendiary bombs out of empty bottles.
2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
2021 Forester

moe8555
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Post by moe8555 » Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:53 am

occasional demons wrote:Considering the Mopar mounts are ~$400 for the full set now....
That's cheap! Here they're $255 a piece!!

Next time I'm in the US, my suitcase is going to be stuffed with so much stuff... new fog lights, new headlights(mine are getting to be pretty foggy), rotors and pads, maybe some Mopar mounts in good shape from a junkyard...

alturic
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Post by alturic » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:35 am

Hey guys, I hate to necro an old thread but I'm in the same boat as apparently a TON of other Neon (05) owners after replacing mounts but here's a brief history and I'll try to keep it as short as possible but definitely need to read it all:

TL;DR
  • 05 Neon SXT - 78k miles - Original owner, as far as I can remember haven't replaced anything outside of normal w/t parts (brakes, rotors, tires, drive-side tie rod end, passenger-side rear control arm bushing) almost literally, if not actually literally, definitely nothing major.


    0 Vibrations before replacing motor mounts.

    Deep thumps/thuds when SLOWLY hitting a potbole/bump in the road.

    Bad Upper, destroyed lower (as in I pushed the metal piece the bolt goes through right off as soon as I took it off) motor mounts.

    Replaced drive-side "tranny" motor mount as well.

    Deep thump/thuds seem to be mostly gone since replacing the mounts.

    First start after replacing the mounts had CRAZY vibration in the drive-side grill area which literally was the plastic grill as simply applying light pressure to it mad the vibration completely stop.

    First start after replacing the mounts had vibration in the steering wheel sub-700rpm, especially if you turned the wheel full left or full right seems that the lower the rpms drop the worse the vibration is.
    CRAZY vibration like zomgcarwillfallapartboltswillcomelosesteeringwheelwillfalloff depending on the "perfect position" of the steering wheel when turning the wheel left-right slightly. Basically think steering wheel dead center, turn 1 inch left, hands off. 1 inch left, hands off zomgvibration. 1 inch left from that, "normal" (or the "new normal") vibration.

    And finally, like most people vibration seems to solely be at low rpms.

Was noticing deep thump/thuds when going SLOW over bumps/potholes as well as any sort of "uneven" (uphill) turns (if that makes sense), basically seemed to be when the front end was "flexing"/sudden shift in weight.

Needless to say, noticed both the upper and lower mounts were shot. Now, the upper was pretty bad but the lower literally allowed me to just push through (and obviously off) the metal that the bolt goes through once I took it off which shocked me it was so bad. I also replaced the driver-side tranny/engine mount as well. The OEM one didn't look bad but god damn after ripping it apart taking the battery box frame off and the mount itself just to be able to see it I didn't want to have to "worry about it anytime soon" so I just replaced that one as well. So ultimately upper, lower, driver-side mount were replaced.

Either way, like most people with the "vibrations" bought them at AutoZone so they are Anchor mounts.......

I didn't do any sort of alignment as I apparently skipped that part in the manual, but I button everything up, start it up and holy shit.... when I tell you it sounded like something was going to vibrate apart it's no exageration. I'm talking CRAZY vibration (winter time, so it was exacerbated by the ice in the plastic "grill") on what seemed to be the front, driver-side plastic grill. Literally as if something was loose. Applying some pressure the vibration/sound completely went away. Obviously I couldn't keep my hand on the damn front of the car going down the highway so I couldn't do nothing about that.

Now, all of these vibrations/sounds are at IDLE only (sub 700 rpm, as soon as you go above that, completely gone) the more concerning part to me was at the same time we started it up right after replacing the 3 mounts and had the crazy and loud vibrations in the drive-side grill area it the steering wheel had a noticeable vibration to it, which I could live with but certain (see: "perfect") positions, as in turning the wheel left-right of the wheel the vibration and noise that was in the grill area was also in tune with the steering wheels vibration (and again, depending on the perfect position of the steering wheel) the loud ass noise as if something in the steering column was making the steering wheel "bounce" around. Before replacing the mounts, never had a complaint about vibrations at all outside of the thumping.

So we scratched our heads for a few minutes until I finally said "I don't know man, clearly we did something wrong but I'm beat" so I drove it home only noticing the problem at stop signs/lights (again, sub 700 rpm) and it seemed like the next morning when I started it up the crazy loud, sounding like the car was just going to vibrate apart, sound was much, much, much less intense. So I took it for a spin, didn't have the crazy vibrations, minor vibrations in the steering wheel was still there, and figured I'd let the mounts break-in for a week and see what happens.

So, fast-forward and while there's still no vibrationlikethecarwillfallapart it does seem to want to get crazy vibrations like omgthecarisgoingtovibrateapart depending on that "perfect" position of the steering wheel, again only at sub-700 rpms. :-/

End of the day I'll simply say screw it if that's what I have to live with but yea I just don't need the engine to fall through, the mounts to vibrate loose, the steering wheel or linkage to vibrate apart while I'm sitting at a light 3 weeks from now, you know?



So realistically my question(s) are:

Would ensuring the alignment is 119mm make a huge (any) difference in terms of vibrations sub-700rpm?

Can the steering wheel/linkages actually vibrate loose? lol

Should I be concerned with the mounts/bolts vibrating loose? Should I keep checking them every so often to make sure they are'nt vibrating loose? :-/

I DO tend to get a lot of belt squealing when there's moisture in the air/when it's very cold out, seems to go away "once it squealed for the day", outside of obviously needing a new belt soon could a worn belt contribute to vibrations? How about a bad harmonic balancer? I don't know what kind of "stresses" would be added to that with the destroyed lower and partially busted upper mount, if any? The entire car definitely doesn't vibrate though like most people say would happen. Literally just the steering wheel at this point.

NickKo
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Post by NickKo » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:05 pm

alturic wrote:Hey guys, I hate to necro an old thread but I'm in the same boat as apparently a TON of other Neon (05) owners after replacing mounts but here's a brief history and I'll try to keep it as short as possible but definitely need to read it all:

TL;DR
  • 05 Neon SXT - 78k miles - Original owner, as far as I can remember haven't replaced anything outside of normal w/t parts (brakes, rotors, tires, drive-side tie rod end, passenger-side rear control arm bushing) almost literally, if not actually literally, definitely nothing major.


    0 Vibrations before replacing motor mounts.

    Deep thumps/thuds when SLOWLY hitting a potbole/bump in the road.

    Bad Upper, destroyed lower (as in I pushed the metal piece the bolt goes through right off as soon as I took it off) motor mounts.

    Replaced drive-side "tranny" motor mount as well.
You didn't specify - IF you changed the motor mount, that is inside the passenger side frame rail ?? :-k

It sounds like you changed all the other ones, except that one.


- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009

alturic
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Post by alturic » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:49 pm

NickKo wrote: You didn't specify - IF you changed the motor mount, that is inside the passenger side frame rail ?? :-k

It sounds like you changed all the other ones, except that one.


- Nick
Hey Nick, that's correct I didn't want to tear everything apart just to get to that mount, which may (or may not of course) be bad. AFAIK, there's 4 technical motor mounts. Upper, Middle, Lower and then tranny-side (AutoZone calls it "tranny-to-motor mount" I believe) which I understand if the upper was bad, and the lower destroyed basically then it does seem to have some possibility and as much as I'm not a mechanic I'd be hard pressed to say my issues came from replacing all mounts but that one? Especially considering I had zero vibrations with those 2 mounts being bad to begin with?

I did check alignment in the dark last night and I am something like .5-1.5" (using a simple plastic ruler heh) out which I will definitely fix first but still.

Here's another question, should there be any actual vibration in the engine while in Park? If I put my hand on the engine should I feel any vibration, none at all, minimal?

moe8555
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Post by moe8555 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:01 pm

Definitely fix the alignment. That sounds like it's pretty far off.

Also, there is a plastic plug / hole cover in the right front wheel well (about the size of a half dollar coin) which you can pop out. Once it's out, some of the middle mount rubber will be exposed.

Give it a look, see if there are any tears or cracks in the rubber.
2001 Chrysler Neon LX (like 2002 US models with the 4 speed ATX)

alturic
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Post by alturic » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:13 pm

moe8555 wrote:Definitely fix the alignment. That sounds like it's pretty far off.

Also, there is a plastic plug / hole cover in the right front wheel well (about the size of a half dollar coin) which you can pop out. Once it's out, some of the middle mount rubber will be exposed.

Give it a look, see if there are any tears or cracks in the rubber.
Yea, when I took the plastic ruler and just converted the 119mm I knew it was out, was just unsure how much actual vibrations that could introduce.

When I did do the upper/lower and had the wheel off I swear I pulled the plug out and I don't recall really seeing rubber, mostly looked like the bolt head but I'll take another peek.

alturic
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Post by alturic » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:17 am

moe8555 wrote:Definitely fix the alignment. That sounds like it's pretty far off.

Also, there is a plastic plug / hole cover in the right front wheel well (about the size of a half dollar coin) which you can pop out. Once it's out, some of the middle mount rubber will be exposed.

Give it a look, see if there are any tears or cracks in the rubber.
Update: Fixed the alignment tonight, vibration is still there. Almost as if (as I suspected, as much as it still needed to be done) it did nothing at all to be honest. Same vibrations are present, etc. Made sure everything was tightened properly, etc.

At this point, I have no idea what else to check. A few different mechanic (not DIY mechanics) literally say "golly gee, never heard of mounts causing that. seems like it's performance related since it's at idle/sub 700 rpms. I'd check plugs, plug cables, tune-up basically". Arg. lol

Mike89
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Post by Mike89 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:57 am

It's those Anchor mounts. They are just too stiff and don't absorb the vibration adequately. I have the same exact problem after changing to those mounts. Don't know how the manufacturer of those Anchor mounts produced those without thoroughly testing them. The only option I can see is either replace them or live with it and hope with time they will wear in better and absorb more vibration. Personally I think it's the top and bottom stabilizing mounts that's responsible for the vibration more than the front and rear center mounts.

alturic
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Post by alturic » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:18 am

Mike89 wrote:It's those Anchor mounts. They are just too stiff and don't absorb the vibration adequately. I have the same exact problem after changing to those mounts. Don't know how the manufacturer of those Anchor mounts produced those without thoroughly testing them. The only option I can see is either replace them or live with it and hope with time they will wear in better and absorb more vibration. Personally I think it's the top and bottom stabilizing mounts that's responsible for the vibration more than the front and rear center mounts.
Hey mike, the really wierd(?) thing is that sure, the engine vibrates (touching it) so I'm unsure if I should actually feel that when touching the engine?

Don't get me wrong, my friends engine does the same but it definitely doesn't transfer into the driver-side quarterpanel/steering wheel.

Now, with that said, I didn't actually touch the lower mount/bolt going to the engine but the upper mount AND bolt going through the mount to the engine doesn't have any vibration at all "transferring" through it. Obviously I can't feel the tranny side mount since you gotta take the battery/plate/air filter out to even take it off, let alone see it. I'll let it idle tommorow and climb under and see if theres any vibration transferring into the lower but I just thought it was "odd" that upper/bolt had literally 0 vibration transfer.

Your suspicion is probably right too with it being the lower (or tranny side) since I did the upper the day before the others and there was no noticeable vibrations at all, which kinda does make sense with the whole "no transfer" or vibrations on that mount anyway?

I will say, I personally don't think the 3 mechanics who said "oh yea, it's tune-up related" are correct since I had 0 vibrations even with bad mounts but still let alone most don't seem to know that Neons (specifically?) have extremely low (sub 800 rpm) idles. :(

The only real concerning part to me about the whole vibrations is that bolts will vibrate loose or other parts will have extra stress put on them or even worse yet, since it's vibrating through the steering column/wheel something in that whole assembly will vibrate loose when I'm doing 55+ on the highway. :-/

moe8555
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Post by moe8555 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:54 am

I wouldn't really worry about the steering vibrating lose.

From what I see on these forums, a lot of folks install performance mounts that are intentionally very stiff and transfer serious amounts of vibration to the cabin. That is to reduce wheel hop. Then again, there are other far more experienced members here that could probably give you a more professional opinion...
2001 Chrysler Neon LX (like 2002 US models with the 4 speed ATX)

Mike89
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Post by Mike89 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:15 am

I'm not worried about vibration loosening stuff up cause the vibration is mainly at idle. Going down the road it's fine. As you said, all Neon's have the famous rough idle at the stupid low 600 rpm that this engine gets down to. I wish there was a way to set the idle to about 900 rpm. The engine idles MUCH smoother at that speed.

NickKo
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Post by NickKo » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:00 am

Mike89 wrote:It's those Anchor mounts. They are just too stiff and don't absorb the vibration adequately. I have the same exact problem after changing to those mounts. Don't know how the manufacturer of those Anchor mounts produced those without thoroughly testing them. The only option I can see is either replace them or live with it and hope with time they will wear in better and absorb more vibration. Personally I think it's the top and bottom stabilizing mounts that's responsible for the vibration more than the front and rear center mounts.
I would *NEVER* install the Anchor mounts on a 2nd gen Neon.

I would rather find some (good used) junkyard mounts, and install those, instead.

Not to mention, there is always someone on the 'for sale' board, selling their original stockers, often in pretty good condition.


- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009

moe8555
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Post by moe8555 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:38 am

About the annoying 600 RPM idle "feature," you can find a few threads in the forums about people who drilled a 1/8" hole in their throttle body. Supposedly this cancels the problem...
2001 Chrysler Neon LX (like 2002 US models with the 4 speed ATX)

alturic
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Post by alturic » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:41 am

Mike89 wrote:I'm not worried about vibration loosening stuff up cause the vibration is mainly at idle. Going down the road it's fine. As you said, all Neon's have the famous rough idle at the stupid low 600 rpm that this engine gets down to. I wish there was a way to set the idle to about 900 rpm. The engine idles MUCH smoother at that speed.
Yea from everything I've seen that pretty much requires flashing and I don't think I can tell a dealer "oh yea flash my ecm to make the idle 900-1000rpm all times"? Let alone I really wouldn't want to mask the "problem" either though...



@NickKo, trust me next time before I go replacing ANYTHING I'm going to do some quick research on the AM parts vs OEM. That is definitely a lesson learned. It's just insane to me to think so many people (although realistically probably the minority overall), with different cars all around seem to have vibration issues after using AM mounts.

Sure some of them are probably due to not having the mounts aligned properly but even in my case after aligning (was a good .5" out) it did almost nothing.

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