How-To: Forever Fix RICER FLASH!

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Danteneon
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Post by Danteneon » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:36 am

I want to say the T/S won't work because the load isn't enough because that makes sense. But what it doesn't explain is why the T/S works with the lights off, but not on. :scratch:
If I could just figure out how to meld the Outback and the Neon into one car...

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Post by lilschmied » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:11 pm

It could be that with your headlights on the overall voltage of your system drops enough that the total current in your LED circuits is also down. Thus making the relay not switch.

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Post by NiteHawk » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:41 am

yeah i forgot to mention that.........lights off turn signal worked fine, but once the lights were on the turn signal would be erratic at best...

stupid flasher relays :(
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Danteneon
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Post by Danteneon » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:13 am

Well crap. I'm guessing I need to introduce a resistor to the system. I really don't want to do that, but I don't see any other way around this :(
If I could just figure out how to meld the Outback and the Neon into one car...

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Post by lilschmied » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:52 am

Unplug a headlight and see if the flashers work. If they do they the voltage is probably the issue. If someone has a schematic of the relay it might be possible to change part of the circuit to make it work again.

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Danteneon
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Post by Danteneon » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:38 am

Interesting. I'll try that tonight.
If I could just figure out how to meld the Outback and the Neon into one car...

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EP27 LED flasher modification turn signal

Post by webkris » Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:03 pm

Greets,

First - Calling this the "ricer flash" however clever and funny, prevented me from easily finding this page and images. Here are some tags for future search: LED relay EP27 relay flasher blinker turn signal mod modification
This is good info and it deserves to be found!

Second - I tried modifying the stock flasher circuit and discovered the issue with the headlamps ON before finding this thread. I then did some other experiments that ultimately destroyed my OEM flasher relay, but I learned something along the way...

After breaking apart my OEM relay I measured the voltage on all the pins as the blinkers come on and the hazards, with and without headlights. As a lot of people suggest you can use an EP27 relay (found at autozone) I picked one of these up and tried it. Of course I got the loud buzzing with my hazards on, and blew the fuse.
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In testing I noticed that the center relay pin (marked H on the fig) drops to ground when you turn on the hazard switch. I hooked it up with temp clips and found that if pin H of the EP27 relay is not connected - the hazards will work with the ignition switch to ON. So - if you happen to break your stock flasher and you need one in a pinch. Break off the center pin (marked H) on your EP27 and you will have some ability to use hazards (and at least you won't accidentally blow the fuse!)

The EP27 still acts funky with all 4 blinkers as LED's - so it's not the final solution. I was able to get my rear tail lights over to LED and leave the front amber turn bulbs in - to keep the flasher / blinker working - but still have some LED's without those stupid resistor packs, and without a fast "ricer" flash.

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Post by occasional demons » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:08 pm

Bah, it has been coined "Ricer Flash" for a good while. But yeah, with the search, if you don't have the right key word(s) it doesn't always work so well.

So it won't run the hazards with the key off? Sucks if you have to leave the car by the side of the road. :lol:

I am kind of wondering if John's issue is some weird ground problem with all the LED's. If the headlights being on somehow removes the ground path from the blinker circuit, it will not work. Just throwing it out there, as it is a slim possibility.
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Post by lilschmied » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:49 am

Well in theory yes when you replace EVERY bulb with an LED you could be eliminating a constant ground.

LED's are not the same as a ground if they are off(not enough voltage to flow current) where a bulb is just a coil of wire and will make the circuit complete(in this case grounded) instead of open.

If that were the case though I'd suspect they wouldn't work lights on or off. Mainly because they turn on and just don't blink if I understand the issue correctly.

I think it's a problem with the relay based on the info I've read in this thread. Possibly you could create and artificial load to make the relay work but most people don't want the heat from the resistive circuit.

It could also be possible to modify the relay to switch through resistor changes or changing the way it is wired internally. Really would love a schematic of that relay or even to open one up and follow all the traces. Maybe I can find time this weekend to look it all over.

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Post by webkris » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:25 pm

lilschmied wrote:It could also be possible to modify the relay to switch through resistor changes or changing the way it is wired internally. Really would love a schematic of that relay or even to open one up and follow all the traces. Maybe I can find time this weekend to look it all over.
Good luck! A final solution to this would be awesome.
Here's a pic from my "testing".

http://rallynotes.com/gallery/2011-rall ... 23.JPG.php

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Post by lilschmied » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:08 pm

Sadly the relay I have is nowhere near what I'm looking at in these pictures. Anyone have one lying around?

Also when you turn on the turn signals does the indicator on the dash light up and stay solid?

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Post by lilschmied » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:29 pm

One more question does the ricer-flash still occur with a stock relay and an all LED setup?

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Post by webkris » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:41 pm

lilschmied wrote:One more question does the ricer-flash still occur with a stock relay and an all LED setup?
Stock - with 1 or or more LED's you will get the fast blinker.
Stock - with all LED's you get no blinker.
Stock relay modified - with 2 LED's you get normal operation.
Stock relay modified - with ALL LED's you get lights on problem.

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Post by lilschmied » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:08 pm

So the blinker doesn't work at all lights on or off with all LED's and a stock relay?

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Post by ZeroChad » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:50 pm

Hmm, I was able to have the blinkers work with led tail bulbs and front turns.
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Post by Danteneon » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:41 pm

Update

I plugged in a non modded OEM flasher. The turn signals flash at normal speed without the flasher modded. Cool. The hazzards flash at a very fast rate. Poop. The front turn signals work all the time. Cool. The rears will only work with the lights off. Poop. The dash indicators work no matter what. Cool.
lilschmied wrote:One more question does the ricer-flash still occur with a stock relay and an all LED setup?
If I could just figure out how to meld the Outback and the Neon into one car...

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Post by occasional demons » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:17 pm

You might have to figure out a way to use the solid state flasher unit they sell for street rods. Not sure exactly how tho. They are for the old school two/three prong type, just a solid state on/off/on timer.

Something like these...

http://www.streetrodhq.com/search.lasso ... ic+Flasher
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Post by Danteneon » Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:06 am

lilschmied wrote:One more question does the ricer-flash still occur with a stock relay and an all LED setup?
Now that I have an all LED set-up, the turn signals (when they work) flash at the normal rate without the mod. The hazards look like cop strobes. OK, not that bad, but close.


A new wrinkle...my left dash indicator (it's LED as well) stopped working today (it's done this before) and while it doesn't work, my front turn signals won't work with the lights on :( Lights off it still works even though the dash indicator doesn't.
occasional demons wrote:You might have to figure out a way to use the solid state flasher unit they sell for street rods. Not sure exactly how tho. They are for the old school two/three prong type, just a solid state on/off/on timer.

Something like these...

http://www.streetrodhq.com/search.lasso ... ic+Flasher
I have been giving that some serious thought.
If I could just figure out how to meld the Outback and the Neon into one car...

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Post by lilschmied » Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:48 am

Without having a setup in front of me it's hard to say anything more on the subject. I suspect the issue is the lack of resistance in the circuit. You could try a much larger capacitor in the circuit but I suspect it's more an issue with lack of discharging.

The other possibility I suspect is the leds not being very well thought out and that a better engineered replacement rather than a cheap fast and dirty one would eliminate the issue. Brand names from those that had no issue vs those that did could be helpful.

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Post by Danteneon » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:13 am

I can assure you, I don't have any cheap LEDs in my system. Everything came from Autoillumination. The bulbs in my front turn signals and brake lamps were $26 each. Even my single LEDs in my marker lamps were $8.00 each.

I don't want to think about how much I've spent in LED lighting.
If I could just figure out how to meld the Outback and the Neon into one car...

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Post by 00Neon RCR » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:02 am

I never modified anythng. I am running front and rear LEDs. Yes I have "Ricer" flash, however, my turns work all the time whether headlights are on or off....

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Post by jmoddes » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:43 pm

just wanted to update, has there ever been a 100% fix to this?

obviously finally getting my azz into action getting this done. thanks all.
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Post by Danteneon » Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:25 am

I still have this issue. I bought some load resisters from superbrightleds to install on the marker wiring. We'll see what that does.
If I could just figure out how to meld the Outback and the Neon into one car...

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Post by C1DoG » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:52 am

I have seen somewhere.. I will have to find the link again. That has the blinker modules for when you put in aftermarket leds.

Edit... Found the link. These might work better.

http://autolumination.com/equalizers.htm
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Post by jmoddes » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:30 pm

Danteneon wrote:I still have this issue. I bought some load resisters from superbrightleds to install on the marker wiring. We'll see what that does.
For sure, i know i wasn't trying to bring the thread back from the dead, but it's something that it seems like no one really had a for sure fix on.
C1DoG wrote:I have seen somewhere.. I will have to find the link again. That has the blinker modules for when you put in aftermarket leds.

Edit... Found the link. These might work better.

http://autolumination.com/equalizers.htm
Thanks for the link. Don't you think these would work similar the ones auto zone sell that would make you blow the fuse underneath the hood?
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Danteneon
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Post by Danteneon » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:43 pm

I don't think that the flashers in that link are any different than the ones you can get elsewhere. They just don't work in Chrysler products. And yes, I tried one of those flashers as well. Popped the fuse. :(
If I could just figure out how to meld the Outback and the Neon into one car...

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Post by C1DoG » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:45 pm

:banghead:
Drove my neon until it was killed in a flood.
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Danteneon
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Post by Danteneon » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:48 pm

I know, I was excited too when I stumbled across them. Seems some Ford products uses the same connector configuration as the Neon. Works for them, but not for us.
If I could just figure out how to meld the Outback and the Neon into one car...

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Post by C1DoG » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:30 pm

Bummer!!! :tardbang:
Drove my neon until it was killed in a flood.
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Post by jmoddes » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:56 pm

C1DoG wrote::banghead:
^ :withstupid:



http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-6-OHM-50W-S ... 4d&vxp=mtr

I'm thinking about that....?
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