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Installing new 69 Series CAI, should I do 60MM Throttle body


 
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kj21
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Age: 24
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Post: #1   PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:07 pm    Post subject: Installing new 69 Series CAI, should I do 60MM Throttle body Reply with quote

2004 SXT 2.0L SOHC Manual. Hey guys, just got a decent deal for a new K&N 69 Series Cold air intake and should be getting it in the mail in the next few days. I know this isn't a major HP improvement but I've been reading that the increased amount of denser (colder) air will give me a bit of a boost, (3-7 hp, i really don't mind) and a nice sound on the pull. Firstly, have you guys had good experiences with CAI from K&N for the sxt 2gn? And secondly, should I upgrade to a 60mm Throttle body at the same time? or is it not really going to matter much? In one of the stickys it was mentioned that the size increase to 60mm makes a huge difference in throttle response, any recommendations? Thanks guys Smile
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occasional demons
Mr One World
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2001 Dodge Neon ES

Post: #2   PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a 2004, (2003 to 2005) you might/will get a TPS MAP correlation code going to a 60mm TB. The PCM sees the increased air flow as a huge vacuum leak.


3 to 7 HP is very optimistic.

You can modify the plastic TB to use a 1gn throttle plate, and do the halfshaft mod.

http://forum.2gn.org/viewtopic.php?t=14771
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2001 neon ES MTX with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon 2.4 EDZ MTX
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kj21
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Post: #3   PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

occasional demons wrote:
On a 2004, (2003 to 2005) you might/will get a TPS MAP correlation code going to a 60mm TB. The PCM sees the increased air flow as a huge vacuum leak.


3 to 7 HP is very optimistic.

You can modify the plastic TB to use a 1gn throttle plate, and do the halfshaft mod.

http://forum.2gn.org/viewtopic.php?t=14771
Okay I'll look into the first gen throttle plate! Can I get this from an old donor car or could I buy it somewhere? Also does it have to be the r/t model to get the rift one? I know I'm being optimistic with my CAI gains, but oh well. With that 1gn throttle plate will I get that nice tight throttle response?
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occasional demons
Mr One World
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2001 Dodge Neon ES

Post: #4   PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You will need to find a donor 1gn TB. All 1gn TB's have a 52mm plate, like the 2gn TB. The difference with the 1gn TB's was the MTX TB was necked down below the plate.

You could use a lathe and open up the 1gen MTX TB's to make them the same as the ATX units, and retain the correct cable attachment.

But back to the subject at hand: You may see a bit more improved throttle response from the thinner plate, and more WOT air flow also, and cutting the throttle shaft half off will add to the WOT air flow.

Finding a TB that is bigger, but not big enough to mess with the MAP sensor is not easy, or cheap.

http://forum.2gn.org/viewtopic.php?t=68112&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
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NickKo
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Post: #5   PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried a 1st gen Throttle Plate in a half-shafted 2nd gen Throttle Body.
Unfortunately, it did not work out so well for me. Sad

The problem is that the metal throttle plate, did not seal the bore of the plastic throttle body properly, when 'closed'... Resulting in REALLY high RPM's at idle.
Not just a little too fast..... It was more like, 2000+ RPM or something stoopid. Mad

So I removed my 'half-shafted' throttle body, and held it up to the light, to see the bore.... And I could see light 'sneaking in' around the throttle plate.
If you are going to try this --- Be sure to check for a properly sealing throttle plate, before installing it on your car.



My next plan is to try the 1/2 shaft mod again.... But using a factory plastic throttle plate, the next time around -- To ensure a proper seal in the bore.

- Nick
_________________
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-1999 4-dr DOHC ATX= UDP, Kirk Intake
-2000 Ply.LX with MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 in. exhaust
-2001 Ddg. ES with ATX = UDP and Magnum header...Syked PCM 'pending'.

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009
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kj21
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Post: #6   PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NickKo wrote:
I tried a 1st gen Throttle Plate in a half-shafted 2nd gen Throttle Body.
Unfortunately, it did not work out so well for me. Sad

The problem is that the metal throttle plate, did not seal the bore of the plastic throttle body properly, when 'closed'... Resulting in REALLY high RPM's at idle.
Not just a little too fast..... It was more like, 2000+ RPM or something stoopid. Mad

So I removed my 'half-shafted' throttle body, and held it up to the light, to see the bore.... And I could see light 'sneaking in' around the throttle plate.
If you are going to try this --- Be sure to check for a properly sealing throttle plate, before installing it on your car.



My next plan is to try the 1/2 shaft mod again.... But using a factory plastic throttle plate, the next time around -- To ensure a proper seal in the bore.

- Nick
Well i'm happy you let me know what to avoid if i were doing the throttle body swap, but i think i might just wait, i'm not sure if i want to take on that kind of project quite yet, is there any other types of mods i could to to give me just a little more push?
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NickKo
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Age: 52
Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 2421
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Post: #7   PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kj21 wrote:
Well i'm happy you let me know what to avoid if i were doing the throttle body swap, but i think i might just wait, i'm not sure if i want to take on that kind of project quite yet, is there any other types of mods i could to to give me just a little more push?


Yes - I would start with the exhaust system.

You don't have to go crazy with a 3 in. exhaust.
2.5 is more than sufficient. You can upgrade to a good aftermarket header, like a Pacesetter; and come up with a way to eliminate the small 'neck' in the flex joint at the top of the catalytic converter.
( R/T's and ACR Neons and SRT's had a much better catalytic converter and did not have this restriction.)

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5544/9387889899_3187936fcb_c.jpg
http://forum.2gn.org/viewtopic.php?p=989103#989103



The I.D. of the flex 'neck' is not very big.


The problem is that the 'flex joint' is integrated into the catalytic converter.
You don't want to eliminate the 'flex joint' entirely. If you replace it, you'll need to either:
- Replace it with a different flex joint; and/or move it to a new location.
- Use this as an 'excuse to upgrade' to an SRT or R/T cat converter.
- Use an Aftermarket cat converter (2.5 inlet + 2.5 outlet is my preference.... Factory is 2.5 inlet + 2.25 outlet.)
All of these steps, will require some fabrication; some more than others.


Here is what I did with mine:

https://plus.google.com/105859487005873724326/posts/LP949k9rWhn

I did some 'custom fabrication' along the way. Smile

- Nick
_________________
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-1999 4-dr DOHC ATX= UDP, Kirk Intake
-2000 Ply.LX with MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 in. exhaust
-2001 Ddg. ES with ATX = UDP and Magnum header...Syked PCM 'pending'.

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009
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NickKo
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Age: 52
Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 2421
Location: IL./WI.border



Post: #8   PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kj21 wrote:
Well i'm happy you let me know what to avoid if i were doing the throttle body swap, but i think i might just wait, i'm not sure if i want to take on that kind of project quite yet, is there any other types of mods i could to to give me just a little more push?


Another thing is -- You may want to wait to change throttle bodies, until AFTER upgrading the exhaust.
You'll feel more gain by doing a throttle body upgrade, after upgrading the exhaust.

Otherwise, putting a bigger throttle body on an engine, that can't flow more air, won't really help anything..... And might even be counter-productive, in some circumstances.


- Nick
_________________
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-1999 4-dr DOHC ATX= UDP, Kirk Intake
-2000 Ply.LX with MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 in. exhaust
-2001 Ddg. ES with ATX = UDP and Magnum header...Syked PCM 'pending'.

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009
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