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Fuel pump problem


 
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evilneon02
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2002 Dodge Neon SXT

Post: #1   PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject: Fuel pump problem Reply with quote

I dont know if this is the right spot for this. I have a 2.0/2.4 dodge neon with the srt4 turbo i have just changed the fuel pump and added the return fuel line i put the srt4 fuel pump which is suppose to be 70 to 90psi. I also add a aeromitive rrfpr. But for some reason i can only get 55psi out of this pump with the rrfpr closed all the way off on the return fuel. Im juat not understanding it. Can anyone help maybe i did something wrong. Does the pump need more power? Is the relay for an 2.0 the same as the srt4?
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Post: #2   PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Relay is the same. You should measure voltage at the pump connector. If it is drastically lower than 12 volts, check it at the relay output and input to see if it is better there. That should isolate where the bad connection is, if there is a significant change from one point to the next.

If the voltage is good, either you are bypassing too much fuel somehow, or the pump isn't much longer for this world.
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INVUJerry
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Post: #3   PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have the stock fuel pressure regulator bypassed?
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Mr One World
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Post: #4   PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^That too.

55 psi is well within spec for a stock FPR. (Which is also the same for all 2001 to 2005 neons)
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evilneon02
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Post: #5   PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought the whole srt4 fuel pump rated 75psi to 90 psi
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Post: #6   PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But does the fuel line go directly from the pump to the rrfpr? If there is the regular FPR canister/fuel line hook up, I don't know of anyone who makes an adjustable FPR that fits into the fuel pump module. I imagine a dead headed fuel pump will make in excess of 70 to 90 psi. I haven't tried it, but I have seen what other pumps can make.

The amp draw will also increase with the load. But testing DC amps requires splicing into the power wire, unless you have a clamp on style amp probe. That is generally an expensive meter.

But if the voltage is relatively high while making pressure/flow, it is probably bypassing fluid. If you make the flow stop, the voltage should drop from the load on the pump motor.

You also probably wouldn't want to operate the pump at those pressures anyways. You will have shorter pump and injector lifespans. If you need that kind of pressure, you would be better off getting larger flow injectors.
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BlackRoseRacing
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Post: #7   PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the major difference between the SRT pump and the stock pump was fuel flow and not pressure scratch
I also thought they both operate at the same pressures....
The SRT pump has higher GPH to help prevent starvation?
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evilneon02
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Post: #8   PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay so with my fuel pump it goes from the fuel tank it runs to the fuel line up to the engine bay from there the fuel line that used to run to the fuel rail I took that off and I hooked up fuel line and ran it to a rising-rate fuel pressure regulator from there I ran the line to the fuel rail then I ran a return line from the bottom of the rising rate fuel pressure regulator back to the fuel tank I haven't checked the voltage yet that's one of my plans but I'm going to also try taking the rising rate fuel pressure regulator off and just run it from the fuel line to the fuel rail and see if it makes the 90psi now would 90psi be too much pressure for my stock injectors I have stock 02 injectors and I do have a set of stock SRT4 injectors but when I put those in before they were too big I had a rough start maybe they'll work better with the 90psi or do you think I should just go with the whole spool boy mod and run the pump straight into a line bypassing the pressure regulator on the fuel pump assembly
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BlackRoseRacing
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Post: #9   PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why are you trying to run 90psi of fuel pressure?
Setting up your fuel line like you stated will not get you any higher of fuel pressure because the stock setup is a returnless system thats regulated at the pump. If anything the setup your talking about is going to lower fuel pressure.
The only way to get your planned fuel system to work is to perform the spool boy mod. Now with the rising rate regulator you may be able to turn down the fuel pressure enough to allow the SRT injectors to work without flooding the engine.
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evilneon02
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Post: #10   PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am trying to get the high PSI so that I can turn it down with the rising rate fuel regulator and the return line see my problem right now is I'm only able to push 4 pounds of boost on the 02 fuel pump and the O2 injectors I need more PSI fuel so I can push bigger injectors in the rising rate will shut the return line off when it hits boost putting all 90psi at the SRT4 injectors hoping to prevent me from going lean and be able to run 10 lb of boost
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BlackRoseRacing
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Post: #11   PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But it seems you don't understand that the 2.0 and the SRT injectors both operate at 58psi. The SRT injectors flow WAY more than the 2.0 injectors. So what you need to do is lower the fuel pressure to operate the SRT injectors safely and use the rising rate to slowly increase the fuel pressure under boost to add more fuel using the SRT injectors.
Using the spool boy mod with a rising rate will help you control the SRT injectors better. So outside of boost, the SRT injectors are operating at a lower PSI and will flow less so you don't have to worry about over fueling the engine. Once the boost kicks in, the rising rate regulator will help increase the fuel pressure allowing the SRT injectors to add more fuel based on boost pressure.
Keep in mind, when doing this you will "NEED" an A/F ration gauge to help adjust the fuel pressure and A/F ratios.
So for example, at 10psi you will want a safe 11.5:1 A/F ratio. So using the SRT injectors you will need to adjust the rising rate fuel pressure to accommodate the safe A/F ratio. You don't want to hit 10.5:1-8.5:1 A/F's because it will be like flooding the engine with fuel.
So to start off, do the spool boy mod...then setup your fuel system as you stated with a boost reference to the regulator. Use the SRT injectors and set your base fuel pressure to let's say 29psi. This will at least cut the fuel flow of the injectors to half. At an idle, with the SRT injectors at 29psi of fuel, what does your A/F gauge read?
You want to dial in the fuel pressure where you hover around 14.7:1 out of boost. When in boost you want to gradually increase the fuel pressure to where at 10psi your at least running 11.5:1 A/F's.
Now keep in mind from 1-5 lbs of boost you Don't want to be still hovering at the 14.5:1 A/F's.
The other problem even more, the pcm is going to do what it can to keep you at 14.5:1 A/F's because you don't want it to see boost. This was a problem I had a few years ago because when the ppm could not keep the motor at 14.5:1 A/F's during normal operation it would throw a check engine light. So you also have to prevent the ppm from seeing any boost.

There's many scenarios you have to watch out for and the best thing I can do is recommend searching some progress logs to see what others have done before you go any farther and end up damaging your engine.
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evilneon02
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Post: #12   PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay I'll have to try that out but now will I be able to do this with this stock 2.0 pump or should I use the SRT4 pump that I buy and here's why I asked when I had the stock 2.0 in there and I threw the SRT4 injectors in I modded the map to not read boost the car started up rough ran rough until it got the idle after a check engine code for running lean had to add more fuel when I would drive down the road I was getting out of boost air fuel ratio of 13 or so and boost it would hit 11 but it's slowly climb back up to 13 during boost so what I did was I unmodded the map because I'm not at NGC car my PCM has a safe mode I guess you could call it even if it sees boost it's goes into a mode where it uses a mixture of high and low air fuel pressure it's hard to explain I looked it up online so on a stock fuel pump push your 58 PSI to the fuel rail on SRT4 injectors I had all the fuel I needed during boost but just the startup was rough so I then turn around put my Factory 2.0 injectors in start up just fine ran 14 .5 air fuel still left the map sensor unmodded and the only problem I had with it that way was if I floor the gas pedal I would go lean pop a few times but then the ECU would correct the fuel and it would jump back up to 14.5 and stay there throughout boost so that's why I figured I needed the SRT4 pump which pushed more fuel which is still got my brain spinning why they say the pump pushes 70 to 90 PSI if like you said the SRT4 only runs on 58 lb of pressure of fuel want to hear something funny I took the rising fuel rate out I reattach the factory fuel line from the pipe to the fuel rail and my fuel pressure went from 55 to 65 PSI it jumped up a whole 10 lb just taking the regulator out and running it straight to the fuel rail on the SRT4 fuel pump thought I known it was going to be this hard to get 10 pounds of boost man out of just left it at 4 lb of boost
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evilneon02
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Post: #13   PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay so I did exactly what you said I did this spool boy mod I'm running a rising-rate fuel pressure regulator I put the larger injectors in they are stage 0 for SRT4 I believe it would be I lower the fuel pressure at the rail mine didn't happen at 29 mine ended up going down to 15 in order to get to 14.5 - 14.7 ran fine idle smooth started up no problem take it for a test drive first few pools pulled real hard air fuel ratio drop down to 11.2 to in the 10s went to the gas station put gas in it after that I got a check engine light p0172 lean conditions detected adding fuel and I can't get it to go back into the elevens anymore it'll go to 12 or 13 on the air fuel ratio and then go right back up to 14.7 14.5 now I am using a safe I went in from another post that are read and it said to take negative 8% out across the high RPMs is what it said I had to do to do the map clamp so it wouldn't detect boost and then this morning I tried to do a hard pool and as soon as I stepped on the gas it went and lean and it starts spitting and sputtering until I let off and then it went back to running normal


Any ideas on what I could do?

Thanks for that right up man cuz when it first started off the first few hard pulls snap my neck back okay they were hard and this dang car took off
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evilneon02
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Post: #14   PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok so they not stage 0 injectors just found out they are stage 1 so should i stay with the stage 1 or go to the pt Cruiser stage 0 injectors of my turbo build ?
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Post: #15   PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

also keep in mind the PCM is going to do what it takes to achieve a 14.7 A/F. There's a trick to it as many people of done it, but I'm not sure what the next step would be
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