Turbodudey/quicksilvr MegaSquirt & Turbo Build

TurboVanDan · Post by **TurboVanDan** » Wed May 05, 2010 11:08 am

Brief update on this project car... Our (Quicksilvr and TurboVanDan) goal is to replace the clutch and install the BFMIC in time to take the car to Chrysler's at Carlisle in July. It's tough to put together much time to work on cars during the growing season, but we'll do what we can...

NeonOn19s · Post by **NeonOn19s** » Wed May 05, 2010 11:34 am

I'm glad that this car is still getting progress!!!

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:05 pm

Ok, I need to open a clutch discussion. Currently the car has a Fidanza '95 style flywheel, a stock Audio 1.8T pressure plate, and an old Turbo Dodge kevlar friction disc. The holes have been enlarged to line up, and the step height has been shimmed with washers, I believe .070.

Right now, the car drives perfectly fine out of boost. Clutch feels the same as it has from day one, and literally everything about clutch engagment, etc seems the same as day one when you're just putzing around out of boost. But as soon as you get on it, it slips badly. No sounds or smells, just the sound of the engine revving without any related forward motion.

I think our options are:

My first choice: Clutchnet setup. But I'm not sure on the specifics, so I want to talk it out.

Second choice: SPEC clutch. They offer the correct stuff for the non-modular flywheel

Third choice: Clutchmasters clutch. They are super duper expensive and I'd rather not.

ACT doesn't offer anything for the '95 non-mod flywheel.

INVUJerry · Post by **INVUJerry** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:50 pm

I'd get the Spec stage 3 setup. It's what I ran in my 98. It grabbed extremely hard, and it's rated to 300HP. You might could look into the stage 4 clutch, it's what Canada is using in his drag car, it's going 11.70's.

ZeroChad · Post by **ZeroChad** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:15 pm

I've been doing a lot of research into clutches lately. I would go SPEC then Clucthmasters if you have the cash.

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:34 pm

invujerry wrote:I'd get the Spec stage 3 setup. It's what I ran in my 98. It grabbed extremely hard, and it's rated to 300HP. You might could look into the stage 4 clutch, it's what Canada is using in his drag car, it's going 11.70's.

Yeah, rated to 300 isn't enough. I'm pretty sure the car is making 300 right now...with the SRT turbo. And we're planning to go bigger.

I'm looking at the Spec Stage 4 right now....

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:54 pm

Looks like the Spec Stage 3 will actually be perfect. Says it's rated to 400tq.....that should be fine for how we're going to drive it. We'll mostly drive it on the street, and maybe 1-2 times a year at the track.

Since we already have the Fidanze '95 style lightweight flywheel....I'm assuming I need to enter my "year, make model" info as a 1995 Dodge Neon. The part number that Spec's website gives me for the 1995 Stage 3 is: SD763. The part number it gives me for anything 1996-2005 is: SD853.

The 763 is actually cheaper than the 853.

INVUJerry · Post by **INVUJerry** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:43 pm

Wait. No. Not spec. I keep mixing them and cm since I had both.

Me, Canada, and glasswars are all running clutchmaster clutches. I had a spec. At 7000 miles mine started slipping to the point where I couldn't launch the car. My clutchmaster has tons of passes on it, the hardest I hit it with was a 90 shot on top of my mag build. It was rock solid, and I still dailied that car all last summer. Get a clutchmaster, you won't be dissapointed. Stay away from spec. Besides, spec has horrible customer service. If you have a problem they claim you abused it and void the waranty.

Plus a cm is relatively cheap for a non modular setup.

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:47 pm

invujerry wrote:Wait. No. Not spec. I keep mixing them and cm since I had both.

Me, Canada, and glasswars are all running clutchmaster clutches. I had a spec. At 7000 miles mine started slipping to the point where I couldn't launch the car. My clutchmaster has tons of passes on it, the hardest I hit it with was a 90 shot on top of my mag build. It was rock solid, and I still dailied that car all last summer. Get a clutchmaster, you won't be dissapointed. Stay away from spec. Besides, spec has horrible customer service. If you have a problem they claim you abused it and void the waranty.

Plus a cm is relatively cheap for a non modular setup.

Dangit. Clutchmasters is rediculously expensive. Probably because they're good stuff.

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:02 am

Well, after looking at Clutchmasters site, I have a very important question. In their application guide, they have listed these two applications for Dodge Neon:

2.0L / 1994-1995

or

2.0 w/Aluminum Flywheel / 1994-1995

There is a massive price difference between the two. The cheapest option for the standard application is only $414....while the cheapest option for the aluminum flywheel option is a whopping $825.

Why does it matter if its aluminum or steel I wonder?

BlackRT? · Post by **BlackRT?** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:30 am

I ran a spec stage 3 on my srt turboed 1gen..Never had any issues on slicks... switched to a larger turbo gt30r so i went with the custom clutchnet setup with aluminum flywheel.. Its been proven numerous times it can take 500whp plus.. If i had alot of cash at the time i would of went with a clutchmaster stage 5 twin disk

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:54 pm

BlackRT? wrote:I ran a spec stage 3 on my srt turboed 1gen..Never had any issues on slicks... switched to a larger turbo gt30r so i went with the custom clutchnet setup with aluminum flywheel.. Its been proven numerous times it can take 500whp plus.. If i had alot of cash at the time i would of went with a clutchmaster stage 5 twin disk

What custom clutchnet setup are you using? More specifically, which pressure plate? And also which disc, and what style?

Obviously I have the flywheel I want to use....I just need a PP and disc that will work with this flywheel....preferably without shimming or anything like that.

INVUJerry · Post by **INVUJerry** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:02 pm

quicksilvr wrote:Well, after looking at Clutchmasters site, I have a very important question. In their application guide, they have listed these two applications for Dodge Neon:

2.0L / 1994-1995

or

2.0 w/Aluminum Flywheel / 1994-1995

There is a massive price difference between the two. The cheapest option for the standard application is only $414....while the cheapest option for the aluminum flywheel option is a whopping $825.

Why does it matter if its aluminum or steel I wonder?

I'm assuming when it says "w/Aluminum Flywheel" it means it will include a new aluminum flywheel. The aluminum flywheel will help with revving slightly since it's lighter, but it wont show a difference in HP on a dyno.

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:39 pm

Ding ding ding! That makes complete sense. Dunno why I was hung up on that....I guess to me, the way they have it set up makes it look like the "with aluminum flywheel" option is what you car already has...not what they are selling you.

So I can easily utilize the $414 option and get a nice clutchmasters clutch. Sweet.

INVUJerry · Post by **INVUJerry** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:43 pm

Yes. Get it, the Stage IV clutch. You wont be upset. They hold STUPID power.

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:46 pm

Well, actually I don't want the cheapest option since that's just an organic disc.

The main question is now:

Full faced Kevlar or Segmented Kevlar?

OR

Ceramic? 4-puck or 6-puck options for ceramic.

I'm thinking Kevlar, for drivability, but not sure whether full faced or segmented is better. Don't ceremic discs tend to chatter alot during street driving?

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:49 pm

invujerry wrote:Yes. Get it, the Stage IV clutch. You wont be upset. They hold STUPID power.

If I understand Clutchmasters naming correctly....Stage 4 is ceramic only. It's streetable?

INVUJerry · Post by **INVUJerry** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:48 pm

I know a few people that do street them, there is a thread over on neons.org in the drivetrain section.

turbodudey · Post by **turbodudey** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:08 pm

I think it would be a good idea to see why it's slipping before you buy any new clutch bits.

It has a full faced Kevlar disk from Clutchnet in it already. (not a turbo dodge disk)

And a 2500psi cover... which is pretty stout. I dunno what the Spec stage 3-4 covers are rated at, but probably not much more.

The only reason I can figure that it's slipping is that it's leaking from one side or the other. I know I've already said that, but I'd hate for any new parts to get sprayed with oil...

And if it is oil, then you don't need $500 worth of clutch bits. Just $20 worth of oil seals. Then maybe a new disk. ($165 from Clutchnet)

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:21 pm

True.

Is there any chance the disc got glazed from not getting driven hard enough? Kevlar can do that...especially full faced ones.

Do you know the PN for the disc? Or a link to the disc that's in the car?

Also, what exactly was your shim distance? The Fidanza flywheel doesn't have the same step height as the factory flywheel, was that all taken into account?

BlackRT? · Post by **BlackRT?** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:38 am

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=361594

Im also doing a custom hydrolic clutch setup
That thread has the links to the clutch net clutch setup i have.. Audi red pressure plate, 6 puck sprung disk and there light weight flywheel

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:58 am

Is that wall thick enough?
To me it seems like it may crack under load

And why use an Audi pressure plate since they offer one for the neon?

turbodudey · Post by **turbodudey** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:32 am

quicksilvr wrote:Is there any chance the disc got glazed from not getting driven hard enough? Kevlar can do that...especially full faced ones.

I'm sorry, I meant to say segmented Kevlar. And I dunno... I suppose it's possible, but not likely.

quicksilvr wrote:Do you know the PN for the disc? Or a link to the disc that's in the car?

http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?pr ... t=0&page=1

quicksilvr wrote:Also, what exactly was your shim distance? The Fidanza flywheel doesn't have the same step height as the factory flywheel, was that all taken into account?

Shims are 0.070". It's not the flywheel that's has the incorrect step height, it's the pressure plate. If you used a Neon cover on the clutch the step height would be right. It's the Audi cover that wasn't originally designed for use with that flywheel. Hence the shims.

BlackRoseRacing wrote:Is that wall thick enough?
To me it seems like it may crack under load
And why use an Audi pressure plate since they offer one for the neon?

Yeah, it's fine. Not ideal, but it's not loaded in the direction that would stress that edge (dowel pins). You can see the marks where the washer that sits over it too. Even if it did crack there, the washer would still hold the cover on.

The Neon cover is like $200 and the Audi cover is less than half that. So... cheap would be the reason.

BlackRT? · Post by **BlackRT?** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:50 pm

the audi pressure plate has more clamping force.. The clutch has been used on a couple cars making well over 500whp its a cheaper solution than going with a twin disk

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:42 pm

BlackRT? wrote:the audi pressure plate has more clamping force.. The clutch has been used on a couple cars making well over 500whp its a cheaper solution than going with a twin disk

mbullet is using a 'red' 2x Audi PP and an AUDI friction disc though. I don't think the standard 1.8T cover can hold 500hp....

BlackRT? · Post by **BlackRT?** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:07 pm

quicksilvr wrote:
BlackRT? wrote:the audi pressure plate has more clamping force.. The clutch has been used on a couple cars making well over 500whp its a cheaper solution than going with a twin disk

mbullet is using a 'red' 2x Audi PP and an AUDI friction disc though. I don't think the standard 1.8T cover can hold 500hp....

I didnt say standard... I posted the link where he linked to the exact setup hes running. You can get a 3x pressure plate also.. But the 2x red audi pressure plate,6 puck disk has worked with over 500whp

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:54 pm

BlackRT? wrote:
quicksilvr wrote:
BlackRT? wrote:the audi pressure plate has more clamping force.. The clutch has been used on a couple cars making well over 500whp its a cheaper solution than going with a twin disk

mbullet is using a 'red' 2x Audi PP and an AUDI friction disc though. I don't think the standard 1.8T cover can hold 500hp....
I didnt say standard... I posted the link where he linked to the exact setup hes running. You can get a 3x pressure plate also.. But the 2x red audi pressure plate,6 puck disk has worked with over 500whp

Also, I meant to say 6-puck turbo dodge disc....not Audi.

Gotcha, it sounded like you meant the standard cover. lol. I really like the idea of the 2x Audi cover with the 6-puck Turbo Dodge disc.

THE question then is: to use the the 2x Audi and the Clutchnet 2.5L turbo dodge disc with the Fidanza flywheel (which is NOT what mbullet is doing, he's using a standard flywheel)....what is the shim spec.

I also wonder how much difference there is between the Clutchnet "Neon" disc and the Clutchnet "Turbo Dodge" disc. See links below:

What mbullet is using for over 500hp...
http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?pr ... t=0&page=2

What's in the bumblebee right now...
http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?pr ... t=0&page=1

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:55 pm

What the heck? ^^^

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:56 pm

I was trying post this:

BlackRT? wrote:
quicksilvr wrote:
BlackRT? wrote:the audi pressure plate has more clamping force.. The clutch has been used on a couple cars making well over 500whp its a cheaper solution than going with a twin disk

mbullet is using a 'red' 2x Audi PP and an AUDI friction disc though. I don't think the standard 1.8T cover can hold 500hp....
I didnt say standard... I posted the link where he linked to the exact setup hes running. You can get a 3x pressure plate also.. But the 2x red audi pressure plate,6 puck disk has worked with over 500whp

Also, I meant to say 6-puck turbo dodge disc....not Audi.

Gotcha, it sounded like you meant the standard cover. lol. I really like the idea of the 2x Audi cover with the 6-puck Turbo Dodge disc.

THE question then is: to use the the 2x Audi and the Clutchnet 2.5L turbo dodge disc with the Fidanza flywheel (which is NOT what mbullet is doing, he's using a standard flywheel)....what is the shim spec?

I also wonder how much difference there is between the Clutchnet "Neon" disc and the Clutchnet "Turbo Dodge" disc. See links below:

What mbullet is using for over 500hp...
http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?pr ... t=0&page=2

What's in the bumblebee right now...
http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?pr ... t=0&page=1

turbodudey · Post by **turbodudey** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:35 pm

quicksilvr wrote:THE question then is: to use the the 2x Audi and the Clutchnet 2.5L turbo dodge disc with the Fidanza flywheel (which is NOT what mbullet is doing, he's using a standard flywheel)....what is the shim spec?

I also wonder how much difference there is between the Clutchnet "Neon" disc and the Clutchnet "Turbo Dodge" disc. See links below:

What mbullet is using for over 500hp...
http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?pr ... t=0&page=2

What's in the bumblebee right now...
http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?pr ... t=0&page=1

The turbo dodge disc is 9 1/8" diameter and the Neon disc is 8 1/2" diameter. You need the Neon disc because the friction insert in the flywheel is only 8 3/4" diameter.

Like this one: http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?pr ... t=0&page=1

And if you want a new pressure plate too, then you could just get one for a Neon. Then you don't have to worry about shims.

This one: http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?pr ... t=0&page=1