I screwed something up... Updated!

NyNeon0813 · Post by **NyNeon0813** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:13 pm

So I put everything back together, except for the exhaust. tried to start it up and... Sounds like its having trouble turning over/cranking.. And there's a popping out of the tb. The last time I tried starting it, the tb tube popped off.

Someone please help! What did I screw up..

neonrt_98 · Post by **neonrt_98** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:44 pm

Sounds like it's out of time.

He Hate Me · Post by **He Hate Me** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:44 pm

What did you take apart?

Try putting the exhaust back on.

ragek23 · Post by **ragek23** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:02 pm

lol it is possible to have it rotate but completly out of time and able to crank. the same thing happened to me when I did a head swap.

NyNeon0813 · Post by **NyNeon0813** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:13 pm

I swapped an rt head. the timing is the only thing I could think of that could be messed up.

It has a fidanza cam gear. I set the lines up, straight up and down and made sure the crankshaft was lined up. But I don't kno about the numbers on the gear and how to adjust it.

Rage did u bend valves bc of it or was it just a matter of going back and r e doing the timing?

neonrt_98 · Post by **neonrt_98** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:24 pm

Lines straight up and down? Are the numbers on the top of the gear when the crank gear timing mark is lined up? Cam gear dowel pin should be pointing down.

NyNeon0813 · Post by **NyNeon0813** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:29 pm

Wow! That would be the problem!
How big of a mistake is it? please don't tell me I couldve damaged something big..

neonrt_98 · Post by **neonrt_98** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:31 pm

There is a big possibility that you could have bent some valves. Just retime it right and check your compression.

NyNeon0813 · Post by **NyNeon0813** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:00 am

What is the compression supposed to be?

ragek23 · Post by **ragek23** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:43 am

wow this is funny. this happened when I used the fidanza cam gear too. I ended up just going with the stock cam gear. because it had a better reference to tdc and because the Fidcanza cam gear was tearing up the inside of the timing belt cover and I didnt' want to cut it away. There was no valve contact. I did a full rotation of the motor before putting everything back together.

NyNeon0813 · Post by **NyNeon0813** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:36 am

Haha stupid fidanzas! I hope I'm as lucky as you with the whole no valve damage! My belt cover broke into peices so I didn't even putit back on. Hopefully I can have it up and running this wkend.

did u do a compression test our just hoped and prayed and put it all back together?

Post by **Canada** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:07 am

You live in New York with the sh*tty weather and snow, salt and other stuff on the roads and you're not going to run a timing belt cover?

I would recommend grabbing one from a Junkyard and slapping it on just for piece of mind.

neonrt_98 · Post by **neonrt_98** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:27 am

ragek23 wrote:wow this is funny. this happened when I used the fidanza cam gear too. I ended up just going with the stock cam gear. because it had a better reference to tdc and because the Fidcanza cam gear was tearing up the inside of the timing belt cover and I didnt' want to cut it away. There was no valve contact. I did a full rotation of the motor before putting everything back together.

I've never had a probably with the Fidanza cam gears. As far as timing reference the Fidanza isn't any different than the stock cam gear. If yours was rubbing the timing cover then something else wasn't right.

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:36 am

With the cam 180º out, it may not bend any valves. Don't hold me to that tho. It would just basically be in the wrong phase. Remember the crank turns twice per cam revolution. So, at one TDC, the cam will be 180º off, and the next it will be at 0º. You want it at TDC with both valves shut on number 1 cylinder. Which should be as the pic shows, as far as the cam gear.

NyNeon0813 · Post by **NyNeon0813** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:41 am

is the cam 180° off or 90° off? I have the 2 straight lines up and down.

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:33 pm

180º. A straight line = 180º If they were across the VC surface, it would be 90º

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:02 pm

You got me thinking... If you were to put the cam out of phase completely, I think it would still run on MS. Ignoring the cam signal, and using wasted spark, I can't think of any reason it wouldn't work just fine. That would be amazing if he just turned his cam magnet and went about his merry way, wouldn't it?

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:09 pm

Lolz, I was half thinking the same thing.

cook2790 · Post by **cook2790** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:58 pm

Wow.. Am I to understand that if I changed the timing belt and put everything back together, I could have the timing off 180 degrees even though the timing marks are lined up?
I know cylinder 1 has to be top dead center, but does it matter if it's the compression stroke or the exhaust stroke? Or would having it lined up to the exhaust stroke make it run like crap like the op explained his to run?

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:34 am

The cam is what makes it an intake, compression, or exhaust stroke. When you turn the crank 360º, the timing marks will then be 180º off. It needs 720º of revolution to be back where the marks are at zero.

cook2790 · Post by **cook2790** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:43 pm

okay so i did mess up my sohc when i snappen my timing belt then lol
as long as the timing marks are lined up and cyl 1 is tdc all is perfectly fine...
i remember there being a post that i cant find right now, saying that the timing marks arent always 100%, and that the right way to line things up is to put a dowel somewhere on the cam journal or something like that? and if the dowel is perfectly perpendicular to the face of the head, then the cam is lined up properly (showing the timing mark to be off a tooth, yet still true)
idk if that was just for the dohc or the sohc as well...

sry, just got paranoid there for a while that I hadn't annihilated my sohc head and the timing was just 360º off...lol and that all this work on the dohc was a waste of time, seeing how my car has been parked indefinitely

haseebgill12 · Post by **haseebgill12** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:54 pm

Erick made that post I think, it was extremely informative, but I cannot find it either. Could do with that information in the (near) future (hint hint)

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:06 pm

On SOHC, the dowel for the cam gear should be at the bottom, like the gear in this thread is oriented.

DOHC cams have holes that pins can be placed into, to put them at the correct position for number 1 at TDC. They also help with torquing the cam bolt, IIRC.

There are some bolt holes in an SOHC head, that can be used for holding the sprocket while torquing the bolt, but I have found a pair of chain vise grips around the sprocket works the best. They leave no marks, and grip very well.

dtjackten · Post by **dtjackten** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:36 pm

Canada wrote:You live in New York with the sh*tty weather and snow, salt and other stuff on the roads and you're not going to run a timing belt cover?

I would recommend grabbing one from a Junkyard and slapping it on just for piece of mind.

i would also recommend this. i just notched the top of the cover to fit my cam gear adjust bolts and it worked great.

NyNeon0813 · Post by **NyNeon0813** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:25 am

Yea after canada posted that I thought about it and ordered some new covers.

Any one do something to the idea of cutting the to part of the cover off to adjust it, then be able to attach the part of the cover on again? Maybe some velcro or something?

And when torquing the cam gear bolt, Best way is to put the chain vise grips on the cam gear itself? am I understanding that correctly?

Post by **occasional demons** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:46 am

NyNeon0813 wrote:
And when torquing the cam gear bolt, Best way is to put the chain vise grips on the cam gear itself? am I understanding that correctly?

That's what I did. I also made sure the rocker shafts were loosened, so if the gear did move, it would not bend any valves.

NyNeon0813 · Post by **NyNeon0813** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:21 pm

Thats what I will have to try then. I got the rt head with the gear already torqued on from acer-one. But it didn't have the inside timing cover on it, so I'm going to take it off and put the cover on it.

chipdogg · Post by **chipdogg** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:29 pm

esteinmaier wrote:You got me thinking... If you were to put the cam out of phase completely, I think it would still run on MS. Ignoring the cam signal, and using wasted spark, I can't think of any reason it wouldn't work just fine. That would be amazing if he just turned his cam magnet and went about his merry way, wouldn't it?

It should still work on a stock PCM. Rotate crank 360 degrees so #1 is back at TDC, and your cam is now in time!!!

You can time an engine with #2 at TDC, you'd just have to orient the cams the right way.

NyNeon0813 · Post by **NyNeon0813** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:11 am

So I finally got everything back together and... she runs! But it sounds like the screws, to adjust the cam gear, are rubbing on the timing cover.. Have to look into it. Post pics up soon. Still have a couple odds and ends to finish up

ragek23 · Post by **ragek23** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:06 pm

Yeah^ they do rub that's y I sold my cam gear. I didnt' want to cut my timingbelt cover.