NA Magnum Build-up *read pg 9 for intake manifold update*

Have a question about how to make horsepower going the all motor route, here's where to ask it.
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tamadrumr88
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NA Magnum Build-up *read pg 9 for intake manifold update*

Post by tamadrumr88 » Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:14 pm

Lonewolf Intake Manifold. mated to modified AEM intake, neither are currently installed*
MPx 60mm T/B
AF/X UDP
AF/X-Race ECU
Crank Scraper/Windage Tray
Blackdog Longtube/2.5" exhaust
Spec Stg 3 Clutch
15x6.5 motegi traklites (9.9lbs each!)


other things that really dont matter: Sylvania Silverstars, RB4 Nav Unit and 6disc, full SRT interior w/ viper seats, Booger Bushings, Mopar STS, Deyeme Tranny & Lower MM/JLM Billet Upper MM, Tein Basic Coilovers, Werks Tri-Point RSB, PowerSlot2 Rotors, Hawk HPS Pads


my best kill to date (highway run :twisted: too!) was my brother's '99.5 GTi VR6 5spd (aem intake, magnaflow exhaust)... from a roll its alot harder to take other cars. from a stop this thing is too quick :) also made easy work of a '96 camaro 3.8 auto (really surprised me how slow the camaro really was)

my goal is ~190 flywheel hp which equates to ~160whp.... that would make me happy

roach made 160-ish on a similar setup. he had a port/polish magnum head, crane #14, and 10.5:1 pistons but he didnt have an ecu to get the higher rpm's. he also had a p&p magnum vs my box manifold

for now i wont go with a #14... ill see how i do with above mods
Last edited by tamadrumr88 on Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:13 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Post by unsuper man » Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:29 pm

170 with OUT a long tube/exhuast is almost completly outta the question. especially since that then limits you to stock header/exhuast, and a cat is LESS then free flowing.

id say to even come close to that 170 w/o lth/ext youll need to tune that safc to 14.7 on the dot. but that iuun turn will put you into a hazadous situation on hot hot days. get the LTH, i promise you that you wont be disapointed with the results. that with a 2.5 catless system will feel AMAZING in thos high rpms where the 14 really starts to work its magic. u also have to remember, people on here get to 170whp with turbos, so its not THAT easy.
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Post by tamadrumr88 » Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:28 pm

emissions is still a big deal for me and i didnt want THAT loud of an exhaust. if possible ill try and hook up with a kirk (since its a 2.5" collector) rather than the 3" af/x (though they are much cheaper/easier to find) - dammit fastfabs why are you so hard to find!?

i love the stock exhaust note though with only intake-side engine mods... sounds REALLY good

dammit this is gonna set me back another $300-500... maybe i shouldnt have bought that af/x-r :sad11:

YOU GUYS GOTTA START HELPING ME FIND CHEAP(ER) DEALS

for the longtube.... if i were to go af/x, do you guys suggest going LTH -> 3" cat -> reduce to 2.5"
or
af/x -> reduce to 2.5" and 2.5" cat -> 2.5" rest of the way


BlackRose - is this the 'crossflow' muffler youre using?

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Post by 05srt4clone » Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:52 pm

Yes that is the muffler he is using.
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Post by Louie » Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:13 am

ill tell you right now. .the afxr was one of the best mods i've ever had.

modified injen cai
lfs 60mm tb
fast fab short runner fully ported intake manifold
fast fab lt header
2.5 inch mandrel bent piping
3 inch magnaflow muffler
msd coilpack
msd wires
unorthodox racing udp
deyeme radiator mounts
deyeme firm motor/tranny mounts
afx race ecu
no spoiler
and about 200lbs of weight reduction

those were my mods that affected speed.

i've beat from a stop and from a roll the following.

acura tl manual tranny (the new one)
350z manual tranny
g35 coupe and sedan manual tranny
rsx-s with cai and exhaust

and i've taken it to around 7100 rpm in 5th gear. .approximately 150-155.

never dynoed it tho. but it should give you a general idea of how quick a few things can make you.

get your hands on a long tube. it does wonders for the powerband. high rpm's scream.

also, the new fastfabs have a 2.5 inch collector, try to get one of those, and go 2.5 straight back.
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Post by tamadrumr88 » Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:47 pm

well see, unsuperman has one that id like to buy but its for the non-magnum. and from what ive read on neons.org its kinda a bad idea to use them interchangeably... meaning that i SHOULD find a magnum fastfabs.... ill sit the longtube header out until i can find a magnum fastfabs. damn, vernon had one like a month ago with the 2.5" collector - shouldve jumped on that

howd you do without the v-afc though? i know you werent running the mag intake manifold so your low and mid range would be practically dead. i think ill stay with the mag intake mani and just run the v-afc

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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:31 pm

yes thats the muffler im using....
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Post by tamadrumr88 » Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:12 pm

Image

can someone please explain this? what does the C# and # mean on the pcm, is that column# and pin#?

is there anything thatd be different since i have an '01?

is there anything thatd be different since i have a v-afcII instead of an s-afcII?

the coil pack wire obviously shouldnt be too hard to find, but what is a/the ASD relay (is that the 'vtec' relay that ill be using to control my manifold)?

where will i find the Manifold Absolute Pressure wire?

the above picture shows four wires coming from the tach adapter, however the one that im buying/is recommended/shown on jegs is
this and i only see three wires


i think im in over my head :sad11:

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Post by Loud-e-nuf » Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:08 am

The "ASD relay" is the Automatic Shutdown Relay in the fusebox by the battery,
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Mflb
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Post by tamadrumr88 » Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:26 pm

i know, ive since done up an entire wiring schematic but which ive also ended up ditching that plan and just going with an indy manifold

on order:
AF/X-Race
INDY Manifold

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Post by Diablo0 » Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:25 pm

Even though you have a Magnum... I think you're going way overkill on the intake mani and you'll probably regret it. Take a look at the opinions out there and everyone that's installed it hates it and wants to rip it off since they don't have the mods to support it and NEED it. These people have more engine mods than you do and still hate it so whats that to say about yours with only a CAI and TB? I think you should spend the money elsewhere until you NEED the mani... or spend the money and have your magnum mani ported and polisted instead which will be the best.
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Post by tamadrumr88 » Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:52 pm

i think that only a few people really have tried it for themselves and had nothing but bad things to say about it. a lot of people read those reviews and just reiterate the asme story and indy has gotten a bad rap for it. the only opinion ive seen which actually looks like someone bought the unit and tested it out for them selves. something to the effect of "a ported magnum intake manifold doesnt flow as good on the top end however it makes up for it with the balance of low-end. the indy unit greatly increases top end and as a result lacks both low and mid range"



now explain this to me... if the magnum mani uses the 'open' runners from idle-3200 and from 4900-infinite, why does the indy suffer on the bottom end?

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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:24 pm

^^^
he got ya.... :)
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Post by Diablo0 » Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:03 pm

Well I'm guessing theres a trend... I count maybe 2-3 people on here that have it, each one all have nothing but bad things to say about their bottom end. Sure top end will increase a little but still losing bottom end. One person that has joined recently had a P&P head with 1MM valve increase along with a 60MM TB, CAI and a couple other bolt ons. Now unless I'm forgetting exactly what he said but he bought the Indy, installed it... and opps.... low end torque go bye bye so he installed his stock mani and ported it to get it back... another person giving the same take on the intake. Dunno about you but just seems pretty odd that everyone has the same take on it and could be why not many have it due to these reviews. Unless you can take advantage of the great flow like say... Turbo... I don't think you're going to get what you expecting. Need I not mention the countless people on the .org over many years installing it and stating they don't like it due to a loss in low to midrage torque.

Magnum mani opens at near idle to roughly 3K at WOT then closes and reopens at 4900 at WOT. Dyno charts have shown a loss in power between 3K and 4900 when the runners are set to open on the magnum manifold.

Here's a dyno chart of just that...

Image

It comes to about a loss of 11ftlbs. Take the Indy mani then... install it which has a higher flow rate than the Magnum mani when the runners are open and thats going to be an even bigger drop.

Another thing... how often do you drive aroud at WOT to make the secondary runners open? There is probably a reason why those secondaries are closed when you aren't at WOT... Indy will be open all the time.

It doesn't seem like I'm stating a myth here... many have tried it... most if not all (unless they have supporting mods) said they don't like it due to the loss in power.

Do what you want though, I hope I'm wrong for your benefit so you didnt' spend all that for something you end up wanting to get rid. Over the years I've just seen nothing but bad reviews on it from people that don't have the supporting mods to take advantage of it.
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Post by unsuper man » Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:11 am

isd say kep the indy, and get DP n20. since it has bungs for it, AND itll put that wide open IM to use.
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Post by tamadrumr88 » Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:13 am

im not doing nitrous. thats the point of an all-motor engine.

anyway, i think itd be interesting to see whats going to happen since im still running the stock exhaust manifold. im guessing that low-end wont be as dead as if i had a longtube header on.

i havent decided whether or not to sell this mpx udp or install it yet. if, like you say, midrange will be toast, then ill consider installing the udp. in that case low-end shouldve increased a little, mid-range MIGHT be back to how it was with my stock magnum mani, and top end should soar.... maybe thats just wishful thinking but i think it sounds about right.

i also forgot to mention that ill be running 15" rims once were out of the winter season

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Post by tamadrumr88 » Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:46 am

im gonna see about keeping my magnum mani until after i get my af/x-race... that way i can dyno:

stock '01 RT ecu w/ magnum manifold
af/x-race ecu w/ magnum manifold

stock '01 RT ecu w/ indy manifold
af/x-race ecu w/ indy manifold

that way i can dispell any myths about this product and actually have valid proof for my claims.

it might take until after christmas to get the af/x-race, but atleast well really have some insight on this product

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Post by Diablo0 » Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:55 am

Good deal.... atleast you'll test and try to settle this once an for all for the people out there that are thinking about getting it. Think you could also dyno you're car without the AFX to see what exactly they gain is on the computer? Inorder to do that though you'd have to take out your butterflies on the stock run since they won't be working with the AF/X to keep everything consistant.
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Post by tamadrumr88 » Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:09 pm

so that would be stock ecu and manifold, just with and without butterflies


speaking of which... lets take up a gas fund! anyone whos been thinking of buying either the af/x-race ecu or the indy manifold (or even those that are just plain charitable :)) could float $1 or $2 via paypal for gas money for doing a good amount of dyno pulls. pm me of youre feeling "charitable" :)

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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:18 pm

PM'd you, but did not send money, im broke :(
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Post by tamadrumr88 » Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:52 pm

so louie... was the mid range and low end really as bad as people are making out to be, even when you were running the longtube

people IMO overexaggerate and make the car out to be difficult to drive daily AND swear the car is dead until 4500rpm

so really, how was it (intake manifold especially)

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Post by rice_eater » Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:02 pm

i can tell you a couple things...

-i'd hold off on the indy unless you go turbo. when i bought mine i had a hard time finding any real info on them for sohcs, but most dohcs didnt seem to like it all that much, unless they were high compression of turbo...this is up to you, i still havent got around to testing mine out on or off boost so i cant tell you. there are other designs out there that work better for smaller hp applications. i think it's just a matter of it being able to flow so much that unless you work it hard you're not really using anyways

-get the best ecu you can...my 96 was fully built before turbo (mag head with #12 cam, rebuilt engine with low compression slugs, mopar ecu, short tube header and straight piping (only a small glasspack where the muffler used to be), intake and 60mm tb, ported and polished stock intake, tec3r coils... when i decided to go turbo with standalone i sold the mopar ecu and WOW what a difference. the car really fell on its face above 5500 rpm and even getting there was taking noticeably more work. i absolutely hated it but the boost gods were shinning on me so it didnt seem to matter too much in the end. also, another point i wanted to make was that with the same piping setup (2.5" pipe headerback to where the cat joined the pipe orignally and then sotck 2.25") i was WAAAAAAAAY quieter with a small glasspack than with a fartcan...so unless the emissions are the killer, LTH would be a great idea coz noise can be controlled quite well

-about insisting on getting a header for magnums only... i went through 3 turbo manifolds (1 from hanh, one from chill factory and one home made) and 1 pacesetter header, and all of them fit just fine with the magnum exhaust gasket, and lining up with the ports... its true that teh home made one that was made for magnum supposetly had slightly larger ports, but they were still bigger than the port in the mag head itself so i dont see how that really helps in the end... my point is i wouldnt sweat it too much

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Post by tamadrumr88 » Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:43 pm

PA is only a visual emissions inspection anyway. so if i were to run a LT header, cat, then piping itd still pass as long as i didnt have any engine codes

if it really came down to that id probably throw my stock rt ecu in anyway just for that day

by the way, im getting an AF/X-Race ecu anyway. not that theres really even a choice other than that. the street program just doesnt have a high enough rpm range




just another idea. im gonna have to make a bellows tube out of 2.5" wide 6" long piece of metal piping anyway for a bellows tube. why not just make a short ram system?

i dont know much about physics and airflow but i obviously know that the hotter air in the engine bay will negatively affect hp but it might make sense with the indy intake manifold since im f*cked on low to mid-range power anyway.

jeremyj where are you? i know you have a short ram with your indy... was there logic behind that or was it 'just because'???

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Post by rice_eater » Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:13 am

dont you still have the iceman? if you're gonna sell it then i think you already know my opinion on this :D make your piping so that it takes air from the front of the car to the stock airbox. just from driving along the air in the box stays super cool despite the warm underhood temps. another thing that will help you is to remove the underhood lining since that'll also help vent the underhood air better

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Post by Louie » Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:31 am

the indy isn't as bad as everyone says it is. i've seen a recent dyno of one on a sohc. there's a power drop from 3-4, but it's nothing major. the car picked up almost 20whp up top tho. you won't get that much since you're upping from a magnum manifold. but if you have a cam that cam with a rev range up to 7800-8000 rpm (crane 004) then you can take advantage of the indy a bit.

i had a fastfab mani with short runners and an afx race. power peaked around 4800-5000 rpm. before that the car was pretty slow. but the afx ecu did wake up the bottom end alot.

and i wouldn't get a sohc header. magnum heads need a 1-7/8 primary at least depending on pipe thickness to match the gasket. i dont know of any headers for a sohc that have that primary diamter. the fast fab for the regular sohc might be 1-7/8, i dont remember but even then, the port centerline is slightly different requiring you slot the holes most of the time to get a nice seal.
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Post by tamadrumr88 » Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:51 am

i found a fastfabs magnum header with the 2.5" collector!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

also comes with 2.5" flex pipe -> 2.5" high-flow cat -> reduced to 2.25" resonator.... i gotta do something with this cuz the 5-0 are definitely gonna get called for sure :)

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Post by J-Villa » Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:15 am

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Post by tamadrumr88 » Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:02 pm

Fast Fabs SOHC Long Tube Header (2.5" merge collector)... with 2.5" High flow cat, 2.5" flex pipe, reduced to 2.25" resonator (from modern performance)

GOT IT!!!

ill put that to my stock exhaust for now and see how i like that... if thats not enough then ill just remove the reducer and resonator and do 2.5" straight out the back

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Post by quicksilvr » Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:24 pm

Glad to hear you found one. :) I'm pretty sure I'm just going to run without a cat at first, and do the non-fouler trick for the o2 sensor. If that doesn't work out the way I want, I'll get a high flow cat and extend the sensor.
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Post by tamadrumr88 » Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:47 pm

all right so i decided to stick with the indy manifold (atleast for now so i can do dyno tests once the af/x-r is in) and i got rid of the mpx udp in favor of an af/x 3-spoke which ive heard is much easier to pull than the mpx because its like the stock design.

once the longtube gets put in itll be...

fastfabs v.2 longtube with 2.5" collector -> 2.5" high-flow cat (extended o2 wires so i can run it with stock ecu for emissions and switch back to af/x-race afterward) -> reduced to 2.25" -> 2.25" resonator -> stock piping right before first bend :) :)

ive always loved my stock r/t exhaust note with intake and t/b... im hoping to get just a little more rasp and a bit lower

does anyone know how many people have hit 7800rpm on magnum valve springs??? i know they could easily take 7500, just havent heard of too many people taking it past that

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