ABS Question

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:05 am

If a neons abs system is working without the wheels locking up then its abs system is not working correctly. Neons with ABS also have EVBP (electronic variable brake proportioning). This setup allows up to 25%-30% of wheel slipage (25-30% lower wheel velocity then that of the free rolling wheel velocity) before the abs system kicks in. that is why the wheels will chirp when the system is working correctly. the abs system WILL outbreak all but the best, professional drivers; IMO. also, the neons abs system control brake pressure in all four wheels independitly (via EVBP system), allowing maxximum braking potential at each wheel (this is especialy important in braking while cornering). non abs neons do not have this. if you install a manual brake proportioning valve on a neon you can only tune it too have maximum effectivness at one given speed in one given lateral acceleration (turning situation)

Baal · Post by **Baal** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:15 am

lol you make it sound like the neon would actually have good brakes.

LOL who in the hell brakes while cornering? can you say oversteer?

kc2005ptgt · Post by **kc2005ptgt** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:04 pm

I love the people who are name calling.

Soccer moms, bad drivers, WOW. All over ABS.

I do not like the ABS. I forget I have it till I start to drive and need to stop in the wet, etc... when it kicks in, I always trip out for a second, and then have to readjust my driving. I have never had an ABS system on a car and learned how to drive a long time ago.

I also like the ABS because it added a little more value to my car for trade ins

Some of you need to stop the name calling and try to have a civil conversation.

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:18 pm

Call it name calling if you like, but after a major snow storm or some really bad weather driving such as slick slush or glare ice, guess who 95% of the people in the ditch are? That's right, soccor moms and SUV's, usually both.

Baal wrote:LOL who in the hell brakes while cornering? can you say oversteer?

BINGO! Number one reason ABS or not they end up in accidents or the ditch. Going too fast into a corner, and/or trying to brake and steer at the same time.

Matt

kc2005ptgt · Post by **kc2005ptgt** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:44 pm

^^ That's because SUV's suck. They feel all safe, and heavy, and easy to drive, blah blah... and I do not like them when they are behind me - 5% window tint and I strill can not see when one is behind while driving at night.

#1 cause of auto accidents is cars.

But seriously, most is driver negligence.

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:44 am

Silly, naive me. I was under the impression that Chrysler engineers intended the r/t, acr, and srt to be performance orientated. Turns out the target demographic was incompetent drivers that detested performance. I guess I learn something new everyday.

Baal · Post by **Baal** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:05 pm

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:16 pm

Baal wrote:
fixitmattman wrote:Call it name calling if you like, but after a major snow storm or some really bad weather driving such as slick slush or glare ice, guess who 95% of the people in the ditch are? That's right, soccor moms and SUV's, usually both.

Baal wrote:LOL who in the hell brakes while cornering? can you say oversteer?
BINGO! Number one reason ABS or not they end up in accidents or the ditch. Going too fast into a corner, and/or trying to brake and steer at the same time.

Matt

Sorry not bingo, oversteer is generated due to the weight transfer, if you step on the brake when u corner hard and close to the limit the car will oversteer, thats why you DONT brake while you corner hard.

As far as name calling is conerned, keep it doen a little...
As far as BAAL is conserned, I do totally agree with his statements since he has the record to back them up(rally driver)...
As for the average person ABS is nice and handy, as for the "Driver" type, I do have to agree, I like to feel "one" with the car and if I want my brakes to lock I dont want a computer stopping them from doing that...thats where my ebrake comes in

Several year back when the PT conertable came out, I took one to a local show as a demo car. After the show I decided to open it up a little bit to feel the turbo kick in and a stupid B$TCH pulled out in front of me, I slammed on the brakes and the ABS kicked in, then I grabbed the Ebrake, locked the rear wheels and stopped with in inches of her....
If you know how to drive with or without abs it does not mean your a good or bad driver...
Ok, im rambling....sorry long day at work...
I'm the dick on a bad weather ay passing you because I know the limits of my car and what it can and cant do...(good driver)
I'm not the SUV that passed you and thinks there hot because I have 4WD and ABS....then ends up in a ditch...(bad driver)

Baal · Post by **Baal** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:17 pm

03blackrt wrote:Silly, naive me. I was under the impression that Chrysler engineers intended the r/t, acr, and srt to be performance orientated. Turns out the target demographic was incompetent drivers that detested performance. I guess I learn something new everyday.

lol actually you are quite naive, let me remind you that the SRT-4 ACR has a freaking Sunroof, A/C and weights the same than the regular one...

the RT & ACR are sportier versions, thats it, they are not racing cars, and they arent built absolutely for performance.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:19 pm

^^^
Back in the day that would be different.....

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:45 pm

Baal wrote:
fixitmattman wrote:BINGO! Number one reason ABS or not they end up in accidents or the ditch. Going too fast into a corner, and/or trying to brake and steer at the same time.

Sorry not bingo, oversteer is generated due to the weight transfer, if you step on the brake when u corner hard and close to the limit the car will oversteer, thats why you DONT brake while you corner hard.

You just said the same thing?

Matt

Baal · Post by **Baal** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:28 am

fixitmattman wrote:
Baal wrote:
fixitmattman wrote:BINGO! Number one reason ABS or not they end up in accidents or the ditch. Going too fast into a corner, and/or trying to brake and steer at the same time.

Sorry not bingo, oversteer is generated due to the weight transfer, if you step on the brake when u corner hard and close to the limit the car will oversteer, thats why you DONT brake while you corner hard.
You just said the same thing?

Matt

yep lol i totally missread that

phenomeneon21 · Post by **phenomeneon21** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:08 am

Meh, ABS gives me a $35 discount on insurance...sometimes it's the little things like that that matter, haha. But seriously, some people seem to be making it a bigger deal than it is. And the name calling is a tad rediculous, lol...

Neonisti2000 · Post by **Neonisti2000** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:00 am

LOL...well now this is just funny...
The first post Dan wrote was a question about ABS and how it should work....remember?

But now this is like some virtual driving school with all this, altough good but irrelevant, techniques of braking and driving.

I mean seriously, why would you need to do "hard cornering" while driving to e.g Wal-Mart or some like that...

Okay okay. But seriously. Little off-topic....

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:31 pm

This place is becoming more and more like the other dot org. The original questions has been answered, thread should be locked.

dblsg · Post by **dblsg** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:15 pm

BlackRoseRacing wrote: I'm not the SUV that passed you and thinks there hot because I have 4WD and ABS....then ends up in a ditch...(bad driver)

i guess all SUV drivers are bad drivers

i like my SUV with 4WD and ABS... and i really doubt i'll end up in a ditch, but i will pass you

SOMEBODY LOCK THIS... please

Baal · Post by **Baal** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:05 pm

Its becoming like the other org for the simple fact some people still deny the fact ABS is good for the avg driver as a safety device but not for racing.

What are "we" suppoused to do when someone comes backing up how good ABS is for racing only because the shitty srt4 ACR has it.

ABS is just another traction control, are traction controls good? yes, they keep a lot of cars out of ditches.... is it good for competitive driving? no.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:01 pm

dblsg wrote:
BlackRoseRacing wrote: I'm not the SUV that passed you and thinks there hot because I have 4WD and ABS....then ends up in a ditch...(bad driver)
i guess all SUV drivers are bad drivers

i like my SUV with 4WD and ABS... and i really doubt i'll end up in a ditch, but i will pass you

SOMEBODY LOCK THIS... please

Its not nesesary to lock it yet, the main question was answered and this is now turning into an ABS discussion. Nothing really has happened to cause any problems...yet...
As long as we all discuss like civilized people things will be fine....
This topic is in General questions yes, I could move it to off topic but its not really needed since most of the posts here are about ABS directly. There has been a few comments about who is and who is not a bad or good driver, but it has not gotten out of control.
If this topic leads to an ORG discussion(wich it has not hit that point yet) then actions will come into play...but for now, voice your opinions as you see fit and dont make this topic turn bad....

As far as my driving, I know im a good driver, but im a little cautious now more than before because of my wreck last december. I still drive agressive but not as much as I used too(City Cops watching me

)

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:57 pm

Well here is factual information then...

2gn neons have disc/drum brake system standard; disc/disc system (with ABS, electronic brake proportioning and traction control [00-02 only]) optional (standard on r/t's, acr's, and srt's).

The 2gn neons (equipped with ABS) have Teves MARK 20e ABS w/ EVBP [something Chrysler only first introduced in 1999 and was not on first gens].

EVBP allows on the fly brake biasing (a great thing even if its just used in straight line acceleration)

It also allows differential braking in cornering. This is something that actual racers do, whether it be because they aggressively attack corners and need to bleed off kinetic energy (the dynamics of a turning vehicle will support this fact), are wheel to wheel racing and encounter a slower opponent in the corner, or many other scenarios.

The neons abs system also allows 25%-30% wheel slippage, therefore does not effectively effect the pedal feel the driver gets from a wheel locking up (partial lockup). After all, static coefficient of friction is always greater then sliding; therefore any wheel slippage decreases the stopping potential.

The rear disk brakes that are standard in all 2gns with abs allow much better cooling.

Lastly, oversteer in a fwd/fws car is the greatest thing since sliced bread (for traction reasons), IMO (as this depends alot on how the driver likes any given setup on any given platform, but if traction is the name of the game, a competely neutral car is great but cannot be achived because turn is dynamic [meaning variables change throughout a turn])

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:51 am

well put!

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:21 am

Rear drum brakes are also about 16lbs lighter (on 1gen's says Grassroots Motorsports) then its disc counterparts and offer a lower mass moment of inertia (so they accelerate easier) for the rear wheels. You really have to take everything into perspective.

Non-abs cars have a pressure activated propotioning valve, its just not as flexable as the abs one.