answer to the myth of the NGC

danman132x · Post by **danman132x** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:33 pm

esteinmaier wrote:The NGC is a more detailed and feature rich ECU. That's all. You ever take a look at the design differences between the intake of a 96 and an 04? And you wonder why you don't see as much of a gain when putting a CAI on an NGC. Are we also forgetting that at the same time as introducing the NGC, Chrysler dropped compression a half a point to 9.3:1? That happens to be a less aggressive compression ratio, is it not? So let's see. Without taking the ECU into account, if you dumb down a motor but give it all the bolt ons, you'd probably be about where you were before all of it, right? And if you have all the bolt ons, getting new bolt ons doesn't do much, does it? The NGC was icing on the cake in the redesign in 03. Keep blaming the ECU if you want, but even at 8psi, mine still wasn't retarding timing, and a/f ratios were what I wanted them to be. Timing and fuel trims are all the ECU can effectively change to modify performance, so there goes our NGC theory...

Very good post. Best I have read so far.

kevo · Post by **kevo** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:35 pm

esteinmaier wrote:The NGC is a more detailed and feature rich ECU. That's all. You ever take a look at the design differences between the intake of a 96 and an 04? And you wonder why you don't see as much of a gain when putting a CAI on an NGC. Are we also forgetting that at the same time as introducing the NGC, Chrysler dropped compression a half a point to 9.3:1? That happens to be a less aggressive compression ratio, is it not? So let's see. Without taking the ECU into account, if you dumb down a motor but give it all the bolt ons, you'd probably be about where you were before all of it, right? And if you have all the bolt ons, getting new bolt ons doesn't do much, does it? The NGC was icing on the cake in the redesign in 03. Keep blaming the ECU if you want, but even at 8psi, mine still wasn't retarding timing, and a/f ratios were what I wanted them to be. Timing and fuel trims are all the ECU can effectively change to modify performance, so there goes our NGC theory...

I agree with some of your post. However, there is alot to substantiate the "myth" as many of you call it. I too, have an NGC powered neon. I have just passed the 70,000 mile marker and have plenty of bolt ons which have done little or nothing for my car.

I dont know all of the answers to the NGC mystery. Maybe one day DCX will get lenient enough to allow people to publically disclose parts of their code (even though technically people can do so right now) by using reverse engineering.

This is probably the smallest tidbit i can post without putting myself into some the dark grey legal boundary. But as i said before, i have seen all of the neon base firmware codes including RT and NGC powered cars. Here is a hex view of a small part of the firmware.

I really dont want to get too involved in these kinds of threads. No matter what i post there will always be someone to write something to dispute anyone elses claims. It all gets beaten to death and then they quickly become flame threads. I'm tired of this crap and the total mis-information on boards like these from people who just think rather than truly knowing whats going on. This process starts all over again when a n00b comes and asks about NGC. They never get a straight answer because opinions are passed along as fact.

OB · Post by OB » Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:29 am

there are some facts that have been stated and are true, and there are many knowledgeable people out there who know what theyre talking about. I for one have learned quite a bit lately about engine management, and even some detailed chrysler specific stuff. I really think people have made a much bigger deal about NGC and that's why there are so many rumors running around. Like esteinmaier said, NGC is simply the modern name for chryslers modern PCMs. Of course the code is different; its been updated and redone. No mystery. The real arguement is about what the NGC is capable of as far as modifications go, and to be honest, its really anyones guess. However, as I explained in my NGC thread, Adaptive Memory and a cars ability to learn and adjust is nothing new. Once people get that thru their heads, rather than blaming NGC for their HP problems, things will be peachy.

hansken_yo · Post by **hansken_yo** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:06 am

I'm confused over this whole debate about the NGC.

All that I know is that the small mods to my engine (CAI and Exhaust) have added some horse power allowing the car to drive better then my 98-Highline.

sooooo... is this debate on how NGC doesn't allow for the mods to fully function??? Saying that if the NGC didn't exist I would have better response and power from my mods?

OB · Post by OB » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:50 am

yeah basically. well, this thread is opposing that point.

silentneon01 · Post by **silentneon01** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:22 am

gski4life wrote:OK I've got a questions concerning NGC.....I have a 2000 Neon (pre NGC) now being that the only differnce in engines was the crank trigger........what if I install a 03 motor into a 00 body with pre NGC computer and all?

Basically, I have a 2000 Neon automatic, I'm wanting to swap in a 2003 engine and tranny......wanted to know what computer troubles I'd run into

BTW do you suggest a computer for 2000 (cable) or onward (hydro)?

Only issue would be the tranny. 03 and I think all got 4 speed autos.

4 speeds were an option on 02's and maybe 01 but all 00's to my knowledge were 3 speeds.

I see 2 outcomes of putting a 4 speed into a car ment for 3 speed. It wont work at all or you wont have that 4th gear.

from my understanding the 3 gear ATXs do better then the 4 gear ATX. Issues were something along the lines of what they found when they put ATXs and DOHC togethers in 1st gens. The powerbands were wrong.

kc2005ptgt · Post by **kc2005ptgt** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:47 pm

00 came with 3 spd and some EARLY 01, but after that the tranny is all the same when talking atx.

danman132x · Post by **danman132x** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:55 pm

I'll post this here so I dont create a new thread for a small question.

I have an 03 R/T. Does changing cams (slightly hotter) increase performance, or will the NGC try to restrict a cam also by taking or giving timing? Like a Comp 400 or Crane 14

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:34 pm

If it knocks, it will retard timing. Although if you just want to throw cams in, you may want to look at a few other things like compression and the rest of the head. It doesn't look like you have too many bolt ons from your signature. I'd do the rest of them before stretching to cams.

ChrisRT · Post by **ChrisRT** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:49 pm

kevo wrote: I have the 00-02 code.

I have seen some dissasembly data on them.

the 00-02 and 03-5 is different

00-02 code uses a motorola cpu very simillar to the freescale models used in the WRX and Lancer evolution. ref (www.openecu.org)

00-02 uses 256kb eeprom for data (not encrypted at all)

Can the 00-02 ECU be reflashed with certain parameters? Say a higher rev limit, slightly changed fuel maps, etc etc.

kevo · Post by **kevo** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:15 pm

ChrisRT wrote:Can the 00-02 ECU be reflashed with certain parameters? Say a higher rev limit, slightly changed fuel maps, etc etc.

Yes. These values are located just below the part number lockout in the firmware. My problem is that i dont have the dcx programmer to reprogram the ecus.

ChrisRT · Post by **ChrisRT** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:54 pm

kevo wrote:Yes. These values are located just below the part number lockout in the firmware. My problem is that i dont have the dcx programmer to reprogram the ecus.

Explain? lol Are you saying, if you had a programmer(DRB?), you could escentially flash in your own values?

kevo · Post by **kevo** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:22 pm

ChrisRT wrote:Explain? lol Are you saying, if you had a programmer(DRB?), you could escentially flash in your own values?

yes

ChrisRT · Post by **ChrisRT** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:28 pm

So....the DRB can flash in new values...eh?

kevo · Post by **kevo** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:02 pm

ChrisRT wrote:So....the DRB can flash in new values...eh?

no. it can flash new firmware with the modified values.

nofrills05 · Post by **nofrills05** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:27 pm

Rossguk wrote:
im going to get drunk

AMEN

ChrisRT · Post by **ChrisRT** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:25 am

kevo wrote:no. it can flash new firmware with the modified values.

PM Sent.