2GN.ORG

alright fellas. First off, my name is Derrick and much like many of the neon owners who have an 03 up is facing the problem of the NGC. Many of the guys on this site believe that the NGC is a controller that keeps our bolt ons from gaining any horsepower. While this is true in some aspects, the real secret lies in the way that our engines are set up. First off, the new neon engines come well tuned from the factory. If you look at the older V6's off of just about any car, they're only pushin about 140 horsepower. Dodge is gettin that out of our little neon's with just a 2.0 L 4 banger. The neon is built for economy instead of speed, while it still lacks the potential to pack a lot of punch. Our engines are set up on a waste spark, mass air flow system. The engine itself is designed to say within a certain perimeter to keep from causing some serious driveability problems (which is why some intakes don't work well on the neons.......too much air is flowing in for the car to compensate with). Most people think that the NGC lies in the computer, but it actually lies in the sensors. The sensors on the new neon are designed to tell the computer to advance or retard timing at the least little problem to keep from causing what could become a major problem later on. So while our engines are still gaining horses from ALL the bolt on's we use, our computer and sensors are working together to keep our air and fuel levels within a certain range. The NGC isn't something that dodge designed to keep our money in mopar instead of aftermarket parts. It was actually designed to keep major problems from happening in a very fragile environment known as the 2.0L 16 valve SOHC. I guess about the only answer is some type of E-manage system. End of story. The only way to bypass this system is to replace the ECU with a performance and replace all the sensors and wiring. Chips of any type will do nothing sence the programming lies in more than one aspect of the car. I hope this helped all the newb's to the neon world and maybe explain a little more to the one's who have just been wondering.

Fragile environment?

http://www.roachracing.net/....



NGC?

GrApHite03....

'03 SXT-T - SRT turbo'd, R/T swapped SOHC NGC - 219.8 WHP 244.6 WTQ @10psi

Instresting thoughts.

hey, I never said that you couldn't mod the hell out of the car. I'm just tellin you my thoughs because I've rebuilt five of them. Two were r/t's. But the average person doesn't have the abilities to tune a car like roach's. Whoever said that I was owned probably doesn't know what the hell they are talkin about anyway. I was just sheddin some light for those that don't understand a lot of the car terminology so to speak.

peon wrote:Our engines are set up on a waste spark, mass air flow system.

Wasted spark, yes. Mass air flow... not so much. The sensors on the intake are a temp sensor and a MAP sensor, not a mass air flow meter. The neon computer uses the speed-density algorithm to calculate the amount of air flowing.

peon wrote: Most people think that the NGC lies in the computer, but it actually lies in the sensors.

Which sensors?

Pretty much all the sensors on NGC neons are exactly the same as the sensors on non-NGC cars. Crank triggering is slightly different, but it's still the same hall effect sensor setup, just with a different trigger wheel.

yes, I totally agree with you. Thanks for correcting me on the MAP sensor, I just typed it wrong. While all of the programming lies in the computer yes, there are many other things set up in the car and it's various systems to keep its performance within a certain aspect. It's mainly the MAP system that is holdin the car back, so to speak.
I think that some of you misunderstood me. There is no way of stopping a turbo from putting gains on a car no matter how hard the computer tries. I was talking about simple bolt ons like intake, exhaust, throttlebody, and other things like that. I was just explaining this to those who wonder why honda's, acura's, and other imports are about to get 200 horses out of all motor with no problem. Just because they are based on a different system. Thanks to all those who have had input. I'm still learning too.

peon wrote:First off, the new neon engines come well tuned from the factory. If you look at the older V6's off of just about any car, they're only pushin about 140 horsepower. Dodge is gettin that out of our little neon's with just a 2.0 L 4 banger.

Uh, sure. But the 'older' V6 is going to be making signifcantly more torque, and if you compare apples to apples depending on displacement many newer V6's are pushing over 200hp.

peon wrote: The neon is built for economy instead of speed, while it still lacks the potential to pack a lot of punch.

Of course, but it doesn't lack potential one bit. There's lots of options to build a relatively reliable and more fun to drive neon.

peon wrote: Our engines are set up on a waste spark, mass air flow system. The engine itself is designed to say within a certain perimeter to keep from causing some serious driveability problems (which is why some intakes don't work well on the neons.......too much air is flowing in for the car to compensate with).

Definately waste spake, but not a mass air systems that's for sure. It uses speed the speed density method, and thus has a MAP sensor instead of a MAF sensor.

An intake can't flow 'too much air' for an engine to handle. Past a point and the engine itself (and any form of forced induction) is what determines the amound of air flowing through it, not a piece of pipe on the intake. In the past the intake tracts used to be relatively small and 'choked' the engine so to speak. Now that's not much of an issue any more. Where replacing that small pipe in the past with an intake netted you some good gains, nowadays the gains are minimal because the intakes are much more better designed than in the past. Some intakes respond better than others because the pipe sizing and flow path has been better engineered than say an e-bay pipe which has about as much engineering in it as a shoe lace. But again, not seeing as much gain as one used to.

peon wrote: Most people think that the NGC lies in the computer, but it actually lies in the sensors. The sensors on the new neon are designed to tell the computer to advance or retard timing at the least little problem to keep from causing what could become a major problem later on. So while our engines are still gaining horses from ALL the bolt on's we use, our computer and sensors are working together to keep our air and fuel levels within a certain range. The NGC isn't something that dodge designed to keep our money in mopar instead of aftermarket parts. It was actually designed to keep major problems from happening in a very fragile environment known as the 2.0L 16 valve SOHC. I guess about the only answer is some type of E-manage system. End of story. The only way to bypass this system is to replace the ECU with a performance and replace all the sensors and wiring. Chips of any type will do nothing sence the programming lies in more than one aspect of the car. I hope this helped all the newb's to the neon world and maybe explain a little more to the one's who have just been wondering.

Uh, that would be because the NGC programming IS in the ECU, and any ECU has a safe mode where when it starts seeing problems it will take action to help prevent engine damage.

Except for the crank sensor (which has a different number of theoretical total, and missing # of teeth on the reluctor ring than pre-03) as far as I know all the sensor are the same. Sensors don't think. They tell the ECU what is going on in that part of the engine world and the ECU does the thinking. The difference between the pre-03 and NGC is that instead of pre-03's using a traditional style look up table, the NGC ECU uses a math based model that calculates actual fuel in real time. There are myths about the NGC being able to limit torque output, but I'm pretty skeptical about that.

peon wrote: I was just explaining this to those who wonder why honda's, acura's, and other imports are about to get 200 horses out of all motor with no problem. Just because they are based on a different system. Thanks to all those who have had input. I'm still learning too.

If you think "NGC" is the reason why our 2.0 isn't making 200hp with bolt ons compared to a honda with bolt ons you need to take a look at the engines, and more specifically how they're constructed, what's different about them, and their operating ranges. Note: it's not just 'vtec'.

I'm glad you're thinking. Just don't stop thinking, grab some books and get reading.

The real problem is probably that in the NGC the data must fall in a specific range to be on a lookup table. If you get it outside of that it goes as close as possible to it it on the table. Since you have modded it outside of that you get no more power. In the old days you just run an equation and it would do its best to be close and taylor with O2 but now that is too late for emissions. It must pass always not just in a few seconds.

So does the NGC limit power YUP. They tested it and every possible output and tuned it to work there, not where we retune it too. Only way around it is to get retune the sensors or NGC. Or make a motor that acts bigger with almost the same parameters.

oh dear not another ngc thread.

It's been done over and beaten like a dead horse. Until a proof of concept is fully completed, I believe nobody will take anyone elses word for the real facts. I will start off with some of the basics and let you all decide on this.

first, i can truly attest for these little ngc tidbits.

I have looked at the code.

I will not share the code with you. It's illegal

I have not fully disassembled the code yet.

I have the 00-02 code.

I have seen some dissasembly data on them.

the 00-02 and 03-5 is different

00-02 code uses a motorola cpu very simillar to the freescale models used in the WRX and Lancer evolution. ref (www.openecu.org)

00-02 uses 256kb eeprom for data (not encrypted at all)

03-05 code is almost twice as big thus requiring 512kb eeprom

NGC does exist in the form that most people speak of. IT IS NOT A MYTH. While it does not react exactly like most people speak, it does affect pure performance. This is very evident in the code.

last but not least. NGC cars do have some slightly different sensors. the map sensor is different.

Lol, where's the :beating dead horse over and over: smiley.........


NGC=No Good Conversation


I don't deny it (NGC) at all. I know pretty much what it does. I'm ok with that too.

well talking about sensors and all, what is the sensor that plugs into the intake, in front of the throttle body, not the manifold side? It's on my AEM.

^^^ air temp

did OB get a new screen name?

OK I've got a questions concerning NGC.....I have a 2000 Neon (pre NGC) now being that the only differnce in engines was the crank trigger........what if I install a 03 motor into a 00 body with pre NGC computer and all?

Basically, I have a 2000 Neon automatic, I'm wanting to swap in a 2003 engine and tranny......wanted to know what computer troubles I'd run into

BTW do you suggest a computer for 2000 (cable) or onward (hydro)?

as long as the sensors will plug in there shouldnt be a problem. the only thing i would worry about would be the crank sensor issue mentioned above.

im going to get drunk

Cheers

yeah I read about the crank sensor thing on the other forums.......well he's including the engine harness and and PCM with it so I'll just plug those in.............should I worry about the interior dash harness?

k3v

dblsg wrote: did OB get a new screen name?

I dont mistake MAP's for MAF's, so not likely. nice try though!



oh and didnt I JUST start an NGC thread like, a week ago? hmmm

ah ha

http://forum.2gn.org/viewtopic.php?t=16165&highlight=

dblsg wrote: did OB get a new screen name?

Actually yes, I think he did Or at least had one of the mods change it for him...

Yes, he did, but I just changed it at 11am this morning.

lol what a coincidence huh. sheesh

The NGC is a more detailed and feature rich ECU. That's all. You ever take a look at the design differences between the intake of a 96 and an 04? And you wonder why you don't see as much of a gain when putting a CAI on an NGC. Are we also forgetting that at the same time as introducing the NGC, Chrysler dropped compression a half a point to 9.3:1? That happens to be a less aggressive compression ratio, is it not? So let's see. Without taking the ECU into account, if you dumb down a motor but give it all the bolt ons, you'd probably be about where you were before all of it, right? And if you have all the bolt ons, getting new bolt ons doesn't do much, does it? The NGC was icing on the cake in the redesign in 03. Keep blaming the ECU if you want, but even at 8psi, mine still wasn't retarding timing, and a/f ratios were what I wanted them to be. Timing and fuel trims are all the ECU can effectively change to modify performance, so there goes our NGC theory...

very good points^

I still dont see why this is being discussed in ANOTHER thread. I made that thread to put the NGC rumors to rest, and to get other people's input as well. I realize its been beaten to hell, but that sure doesnt explain why people still dont have a clue about it. Apparently NGC owners still havent been givin the correct information, which is the only reason I started a discussion on it in my other thread. Those of you who think its been discussed enough dont need to contribute.

esteinmaier wrote:The NGC is a more detailed and feature rich ECU. That's all. You ever take a look at the design differences between the intake of a 96 and an 04? And you wonder why you don't see as much of a gain when putting a CAI on an NGC. Are we also forgetting that at the same time as introducing the NGC, Chrysler dropped compression a half a point to 9.3:1? That happens to be a less aggressive compression ratio, is it not? So let's see. Without taking the ECU into account, if you dumb down a motor but give it all the bolt ons, you'd probably be about where you were before all of it, right? And if you have all the bolt ons, getting new bolt ons doesn't do much, does it? The NGC was icing on the cake in the redesign in 03. Keep blaming the ECU if you want, but even at 8psi, mine still wasn't retarding timing, and a/f ratios were what I wanted them to be. Timing and fuel trims are all the ECU can effectively change to modify performance, so there goes our NGC theory...

...and even after reading that, you'll still have people say "no, Krysler did it to limit modz y0!" The above post should be put on the friggin 2GN homepage because I personally haven't seen it explained any clearer than that anywhere on here.

^the whole reason I wrote my thread was in hope of some sort of sticky action. somewhere to send the noobz or something.