Gauging Interest for NGC reprogramming (no joke)

hartungenator · Post by **hartungenator** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:23 am

OK, so here's the deal. One of my friends works for EDGE performance products as an electrical engineer. Basically, he does all the software programming for their after market computers (mostly trucks), including breaking down the codes and reprogramming them and what not. He has all the needed equipment and experience for this kind of stuff.

SO, my question is how many people would REALLY be interested in having their NGC computers reprogrammed?? Also, how much would you pay for such an aftermarket computer or reprogramming service? Now I don't have any specs yet as to what the red line would be raised to or HP gains or anything like that...

FOR NOW I just want to see what the real world interest would be and give him an idea of if he could make some money doing it and if it would be a good investment of his time and energy. ALSO, does anyone know an approximate cost for an NGC ECU? Any recommended places for picking up an extra??
Thanks in advance.

Nutmeg · Post by **Nutmeg** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:33 am

I'm sure if the gains were worth it, many people would love a reprogramming.

NiteHawk · Post by **NiteHawk** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:04 am

i wouldn't want NGC removed from the ECU.......NGC is a lovely thing!

now if you could just make it so we could add boost maps to non-boosted ecu's, and edit the tables, that would be awesome

Mr Josh Zombie · Post by **Mr Josh Zombie** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:12 am

untill you show proof of the ability to crack the code, very very VERY few people are going to take you seriously.

but if you can do what HPtuners does for cars, then I'd say you have a good business adventure in front of you

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:51 am

NiteHawk wrote:i wouldn't want NGC removed from the ECU.......NGC is a lovely thing!

now if you could just make it so we could add boost maps to non-boosted ecu's, and edit the tables, that would be awesome

Exactly, if there was a way to give the parameters a wider window, that would make a lot of NGC ppl happy.

TN.Frank · Post by **TN.Frank** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:40 am

Yep, don't want to do away with NGC just be able to tweak it to work with more mods like a 60mm TB or a turbo without the need of going to an aftermarket add on ECU. Something hand held that'll plug into the OBD II port would be great, no need to send off the ECU and we could tweak it to our own needs.

chrisrunsi · Post by **chrisrunsi** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:28 pm

Price would be key... because although MS seems a little more difficult to understand, its still way less than other ECU's. I'd be happy with say a $300 handheld, as I think that is around what most go for...

hartungenator · Post by **hartungenator** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:46 pm

Ok, so a hand held plug in unit seems to be more favorable? What type of programming parameters would you want? I'm not familiar with how the NGC operates differently than the previous ECU's, so I'm not quite sure what would need to be done. Like I said, I'm just gauging interest so my friend can get an idea of it would be worth his time and money and also if he can actually make the desired product. Additional comments, ideas, and suggestions still welcome!!

TheRandom1 · Post by **TheRandom1** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:19 pm

I'm interested.

OB · Post by OB » Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:29 pm

NGC is no different than most if not all of the modern PCM's on the road today. It's just Chrysler's name for the computer used in their newer vehicles. Adaptive strategy isnt new and it is far from being a mystery. Special odd-tooth crank reluctor wheels are nothing new either. From an engineering standpoint, as long as you could communicate with the computer (bypass any manufacturer encryption) you could tune the NGC computer just like any other car out there. It's getting past that first step. The aftermarket for computer tuning simply doesnt have interest in our segment. There's really nothing more to it. The SRT-4 community has made some headway (so ive heard), which tells us its not impossible, contrary to many ignorant and uneducated people in our community.

To stay on topic, I agree with most regarding the OBDII port plugnplay idea. It would be much easier and low cost, but would also leave room for disaster for those who dont know what theyre doing. The ability to adjust parameters such as fuel injection pulse and duration and spark timing would be ideal. Additional programming for boost control for the turbo guys would be a nice touch. Cutting the speed governor and allowing for rev limit adjustment would also be a plus, and a good selling point for a lot of people. Compatibility with monitoring equipment (gauges) should be included. For me, one of the most important things would be included software for editing maps on a PC. Most quality plug in OBD tuners allow software to be both uploaded to and downloaded from a computer for fine tuning, diagnosis, and monitoring. The ability to graph and record the vehicle's running status in real time and use the playback to tune would be great.

chrisrunsi · Post by **chrisrunsi** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:56 pm

excon · Post by **excon** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:26 am

Also something for us ATX users a higher rev limiter... I'm not sure if that's in the ECU or not, but at WOT my ATX shifts at 6000 and not 6500...

...Also gains would be nice too; however, until i see it, i won't believe it.

Post by **occasional demons** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:28 pm

While I can uderstand the ATX ppl wanting higher revs there should be some caution there. The OEM TC will explode if subjected to higher RPM's. I have had it happen to me personally. And it was the 3 speed, not the "less durable" (in stock form) 4 speed. But then a defective clutch assy will also grenade at the higher end of the RPM limit. There are no garantees, so just understand what can happen when pushing the limits.

NiteHawk · Post by **NiteHawk** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:49 pm

OB wrote:NGC is no different than most if not all of the modern PCM's on the road today. It's just Chrysler's name for the computer used in their newer vehicles. Adaptive strategy isnt new and it is far from being a mystery. Special odd-tooth crank reluctor wheels are nothing new either. From an engineering standpoint, as long as you could communicate with the computer (bypass any manufacturer encryption) you could tune the NGC computer just like any other car out there. It's getting past that first step. The aftermarket for computer tuning simply doesnt have interest in our segment. There's really nothing more to it. The SRT-4 community has made some headway (so ive heard), which tells us its not impossible, contrary to many ignorant and uneducated people in our community.

To stay on topic, I agree with most regarding the OBDII port plugnplay idea. It would be much easier and low cost, but would also leave room for disaster for those who dont know what theyre doing. The ability to adjust parameters such as fuel injection pulse and duration and spark timing would be ideal. Additional programming for boost control for the turbo guys would be a nice touch. Cutting the speed governor and allowing for rev limit adjustment would also be a plus, and a good selling point for a lot of people. Compatibility with monitoring equipment (gauges) should be included. For me, one of the most important things would be included software for editing maps on a PC. Most quality plug in OBD tuners allow software to be both uploaded to and downloaded from a computer for fine tuning, diagnosis, and monitoring. The ability to graph and record the vehicle's running status in real time and use the playback to tune would be great.

I couldn't have said that better myself!

oh, oh, and have the software for the PC start randomly blinking "Danger To Manifold" a bunch of times!!!

jk

Fuzzyneon · Post by **Fuzzyneon** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:28 pm

LOL nitehawk that would be funny
I'd be good for a tuner for Ngc it would rule

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:50 pm

GREAT information in this thread.

- Nick

OB wrote:NGC is no different than most if not all of the modern PCM's on the road today. It's just Chrysler's name for the computer used in their newer vehicles. Adaptive strategy isnt new and it is far from being a mystery. Special odd-tooth crank reluctor wheels are nothing new either. From an engineering standpoint, as long as you could communicate with the computer (bypass any manufacturer encryption) you could tune the NGC computer just like any other car out there. It's getting past that first step. The aftermarket for computer tuning simply doesnt have interest in our segment. There's really nothing more to it. The SRT-4 community has made some headway (so ive heard), which tells us its not impossible, contrary to many ignorant and uneducated people in our community.

To stay on topic, I agree with most regarding the OBDII port plugnplay idea. It would be much easier and low cost, but would also leave room for disaster for those who dont know what theyre doing. The ability to adjust parameters such as fuel injection pulse and duration and spark timing would be ideal. Additional programming for boost control for the turbo guys would be a nice touch. Cutting the speed governor and allowing for rev limit adjustment would also be a plus, and a good selling point for a lot of people. Compatibility with monitoring equipment (gauges) should be included. For me, one of the most important things would be included software for editing maps on a PC. Most quality plug in OBD tuners allow software to be both uploaded to and downloaded from a computer for fine tuning, diagnosis, and monitoring. The ability to graph and record the vehicle's running status in real time and use the playback to tune would be great.

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:05 pm

occasional demons wrote:While I can uderstand the ATX ppl wanting higher revs there should be some caution there. The OEM TC will explode if subjected to higher RPM's. I have had it happen to me personally. And it was the 3 speed, not the "less durable" (in stock form) 4 speed. But then a defective clutch assy will also grenade at the higher end of the RPM limit. There are no garantees, so just understand what can happen when pushing the limits.

Occasional, I have heard/read that destroying the T/C is possible, but I have never HEARD of this actually happening to someone !!

How high were you revving when this happened ? What were you running ? (Mopar Performance PCM, standalone, etc. ??)

- Nick

excon · Post by **excon** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:34 pm

well, how hard would it be to install an aftermarket torque converter? (couldn't find it in the haynes manual) I don't think guys like us that have fairly modified vehicles would mind...

OB · Post by OB » Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:28 pm

^A manual transmission swap would be much more realistic. Installing a new TC is one thing, but actually finding an aftermarket one for the ATX is a whole different ball game. I'm not sure one even exists on the retail market.

60trim · Post by **60trim** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:45 am

sounds like your buddy is doing something similair to the HKS CAMP2. We are testing one out right now on my buddy's Evo. So far it has been benificial. We have seen gains up to 380 on the stock turbo with cams, gears, injectors, fuel pump, and new fuel and ignition tables. Its crazy with what little you can do with an Evo and get respectable numbers for the street.

blue demon02 · Post by **blue demon02** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:06 am

NiteHawk wrote:NGC is no different than most if not all of the modern PCM's on the road today. It's just Chrysler's name for the computer used in their newer vehicles. Adaptive strategy isnt new and it is far from being a mystery. Special odd-tooth crank reluctor wheels are nothing new either. From an engineering standpoint, as long as you could communicate with the computer (bypass any manufacturer encryption) you could tune the NGC computer just like any other car out there. It's getting past that first step. The aftermarket for computer tuning simply doesnt have interest in our segment. There's really nothing more to it. The SRT-4 community has made some headway (so ive heard), which tells us its not impossible, contrary to many ignorant and uneducated people in our community.

To stay on topic, I agree with most regarding the OBDII port plugnplay idea. It would be much easier and low cost, but would also leave room for disaster for those who dont know what theyre doing. The ability to adjust parameters such as fuel injection pulse and duration and spark timing would be ideal. Additional programming for boost control for the turbo guys would be a nice touch. Cutting the speed governor and allowing for rev limit adjustment would also be a plus, and a good selling point for a lot of people. Compatibility with monitoring equipment (gauges) should be included. For me, one of the most important things would be included software for editing maps on a PC. Most quality plug in OBD tuners allow software to be both uploaded to and downloaded from a computer for fine tuning, diagnosis, and monitoring. The ability to graph and record the vehicle's running status in real time and use the playback to tune would be great.

Thank you I was about to say the same thing. There is nothing special about NGC. All Chrysler did was make the computers more sensative in an attempt to improve the fuel
Econemy and reduce immisions. But what is the biggest thing that changed was they wnet from a 16 BIT rom chip to 36 BIT. My guess is the old 16 bit one could not keep up with the more sensative measurs needed to achieve what Chrysler was trying to do. This is the reason why Howell could not do PCM's for the NGC computers. He is using programing that some one else did that he simply copies. The AFX pcm's get sent to a retired Chrysler programer that flashes them with the differant programing. I'm guessing that because he is retired he no longer has access to what is needed to program the new NGC computers.

I think a plug and play ECU would sell better then a plug and program unit. There is allready ways to do a plug in/wire and program. What I have noticed with the majority of people that drive the 2nd Gen neons is most of them have verry basic knowledge about modding cars. If people allready think whats out there to be to much hassle then chances are they will not buy something they have to program. You could possibaly have a plug in unit that comes with the option of pre-designed maps or a do it your self map.

Post by **occasional demons** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:38 am

NickKo wrote:
occasional demons wrote:While I can uderstand the ATX ppl wanting higher revs there should be some caution there. The OEM TC will explode if subjected to higher RPM's. I have had it happen to me personally. And it was the 3 speed, not the "less durable" (in stock form) 4 speed. But then a defective clutch assy will also grenade at the higher end of the RPM limit. There are no garantees, so just understand what can happen when pushing the limits.
Occasional, I have heard/read that destroying the T/C is possible, but I have never HEARD of this actually happening to someone !!

How high were you revving when this happened ? What were you running ? (Mopar Performance PCM, standalone, etc. ??)

- Nick

It was my Aunt's Sundance. My cousin had down shifted it at high speed. I had to borrow it later that day and it grenaded during normal driving. Locked up solid, the engine stalled and wouldn't turn over. We thought the engine had seized, but it turned out to be the TC. The car was like 5 days old. After the dealer found out what the cause was, my cousin fessed up. After the TC was replaced the car never had any other related problems. My guess would be 7500-8000 rpm Not really sure what 2nd gear rpms would be in the speed at around 90-100 mph.

excon · Post by **excon** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:33 pm

IF (that's a big if) there is a plug-and-play / standalone / aftermarket PCM whatever for an ATX NGC neon I wouldn't want it to rev to anything above 7200. (I think even 7000 rpms is too high!) I'd just like to be able to use all the power it would be able to unleash. 6500 would be GREAT for me.

...again, i don't know why i get my hopes up... it will never happen.

Hudson_Neon · Post by **Hudson_Neon** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:22 pm

depending on price, gains, and availability i'd be down for trying it. just so long as it doesn't turn out like the JET chip

Fuzzyneon · Post by **Fuzzyneon** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:32 pm

Hudson_Neon wrote:depending on price, gains, and availability i'd be down for trying it. just so long as it doesn't turn out like the JET chip

seconded it would have to be cheaper then megasquirt honestly

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:33 pm

excon wrote:IF (that's a big if) there is a plug-and-play / standalone / aftermarket PCM whatever for an ATX NGC neon I wouldn't want it to rev to anything above 7200. (I think even 7000 rpms is too high!) I'd just like to be able to use all the power it would be able to unleash. 6500 would be GREAT for me.

...again, i don't know why i get my hopes up... it will never happen.

It will be see interesting to see if / when / what Howell Automotive will release their reprogrammed PCM......

- Nick

BillyMike · Post by **BillyMike** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:44 am

All this talk is giveing me a headace

i wish someone would come up with a programer and or reflash soon. Im tired of my car being untuned.

Post by **racer12306** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:51 am

Don't count on it ever happening. The neon is dead. Don't expect any new development, especially for a computer.

Jerome Adams · Post by **Jerome Adams** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:14 pm

bump rev limiter to 7200-7500
remove speed limiter
adjust fuel and spark

If it was simple plug and play I would happily give $300-400. Interested to see if Howell actually comes out with an AFx for the 03-05 crowd. And that is only if I stay N/A.

kevo · Post by **kevo** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:11 am

this thread and the howell ngc threads are funny.

2GN.ORG

Gauging Interest for NGC reprogramming (no joke)

Would you be interested in getting your NGC ECU reprogrammed??

Gauging Interest for NGC reprogramming (no joke)