car cranks but wont start...wicked cold outside.

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car cranks but wont start...wicked cold outside.

Post by mickeytopher » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:33 am

So our car has been sitting for most of the week and we went to start but nothing. It would crank and crank but would not start, the spark plugs have gas on them so I'm thinking fuel isn't an issue. I pulled the wires while she cranked it and saw some spark. Tried starting fluid, nothing. The wife said it started last night. The weather man said its been around 10here or below, but feels like -5. Could the cold be messing with the battery enough to turn it but not enough to start the engine.

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Post by occasional demons » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:56 am

Put jumper cables on it, and hold the throttle to the floor. This cuts power to the injectors, so they won't inject fuel.

Possibly it got flooded, and the plugs are too wet to fire. You may need to pull them, and let them air out, or heat them with a propane torch on the ends.
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Post by mickeytopher » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:03 am

I cleaned them off a couple of times and it didn't help. but I'm going to get the battery charged today see if that helps....can't get a car to it to get it jummped.

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Post by occasional demons » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:05 am

How were you cleaning the plugs? Heat is about the only effective way for a fuel soaked plug.

Just be sure the battery hasn't frozen before connecting the charger to it. It has to be pretty well discharged to freeze, but better safe than sorry.

If it has frozen, your best bet is to trade it in for a new one. The plates get pushed together, and cause an internal dead short. There is the risk of it exploding when juice is put to it.
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Post by mickeytopher » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:12 am

occasional demons wrote:How were you cleaning the plugs? Heat is about the only effective way for a fuel soaked plug.

Just be sure the battery hasn't frozen before connecting the charger to it. It has to be pretty well discharged to freeze, but better safe than sorry.

If it has frozen, your best bet is to trade it in for a new one. The plates get pushed together, and cause an internal dead short. There is the risk of it exploding when juice is put to it.
I used electrical contact cleaner and let them sit in the house for a while. I was going to have the guys at Advance Auto check it out.

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Post by mickeytopher » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:53 pm

I got the battery checked out they said it was at 12.2 volts, and 507 out of 540 cold cranking amps. So they exchanged it....Fingers crossed

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Post by mickeytopher » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:19 am

I'm at a loss, I give up...getting it towed this weekend

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Post by A@ron » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:35 pm

Yeah the battery was the most likely culprit with the weather and sitting but since you've replaced that it's unlikely that it was the issue. Has the car been having any rough starting or surging while shifting between gears if an ATX? If an MTX has the IAC been cleaned? Since you've got fuel and spark it somewhat narrows it down to a mistimed spark issue (camshaft position sensor) or possibly an air issue (IAC).

I've had the darn camshaft position sensor go out and cause a no start but crank situation twice on my 04 SXT.

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Post by mickeytopher » Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:01 pm

No starting or surging issues. not sure what ATX or MTX is? The IAC is new. I've been reading about the cam sensor, I'll try unplugging it this weekend when it gets to 30.

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Post by A@ron » Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:47 pm

ATX = automatic transmission
MTX = manual transmission

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Post by neonrog » Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:49 pm

Since nobody eles asked, can you run the codes? Requires you turn the key on and off twice, then turn it on again, but never try to start it. Leaving the key on the third time should give some P series codes in the odometer. Give it a whirl before unplugging anything.
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Post by mickeytopher » Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:56 pm

neonrog wrote:Since nobody eles asked, can you run the codes? Requires you turn the key on and off twice, then turn it on again, but never try to start it. Leaving the key on the third time should give some P series codes in the odometer. Give it a whirl before unplugging anything.

I did before I changed the battery out, and all I got was a P1684, the batt disconnect code, and the code for the fuel pump relay, but that was because I pulled it to try to get it to un-flood.

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Post by sidepipe87 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:54 pm

Is it high mileage? Was the timing belt replaced?
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Post by mickeytopher » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:56 pm

sidepipe87 wrote:Is it high mileage? Was the timing belt replaced?
130,000 miles, I don't know if the belt was ever replaced. Is there a way to check with out tearing the front of the engine apart?

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Post by sidepipe87 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:06 pm

there is a round plug in the outer timing cover up near the cam. if you pull that out and shine a flash light in there you can try to line up the timing mark on the cam to TDC then pop your cyl 1 spark plug, stick a 1/4" extension down the hole and see if it's at the top of it's stoke. If not, you're timing belt is snapped or stretched.

These cars should have the belt and water pump replaced right around the 100k mark otherwise it is a ticking time bomb. if the belt snapped, valves are most likely bent.
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Post by neonrog » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:15 pm

Since I just did the timing belt and waterpump, my old belt sheared teeth off the belt. At 166,000 miles. And since it died at barely above idle, I got lucky and didn't bend valves. So to check to see if the belt broke, pull the passenger side tire. In the plastic there is a little oval shaped plug, yank it out. You will need a 19mm socket and a long extension. That fits on the end of the crankshaft. Turn it clockwise only. Under the hood, on the timing belt cover there is a small round plastic plug, pop it out and you will see the top of the cam pulley. Don't put a finger in there to see if it turns, have a second set of eyes and a flashlight.

For future reference, with modern fuel injection, if you suspect flooding, floor the gas pedal and hold while cranking. That is a signal to the computer to shut the injectors....
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Post by mickeytopher » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:26 am

Could a cold snap weaken a belt enough to cause it to break?

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Post by occasional demons » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:49 am

If the coolant is not quite good enough to keep from freezing/beginning to freeze, it could have locked the water pump impeller, and snapped the belt.

Apart from that, being past the 100K mark is rolling the dice.
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Post by sirvaliant_98 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:59 pm

If possible you need to determine if this is an issue caused by cold temps or not. If you have a garage that you can put a heater in overnight and hopefully keep temp above freezing that would be great. If the car starts then we know it's a cold only issue, if it doesn't start then we look at more potential issues.

Does the car sound like it's wanting to start up or doess it sound more like a free spinning fast start? If your belt broke or stripped teeth the crank will still turn and just sound like it's spinning faster than normal. You can pull the view plug on the timing cover and have your wife crank the motor, if the cam gear turns, most likely your fine as far as no broken or stripped belt.
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Post by mickeytopher » Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:08 am

sirvaliant_98 wrote:If possible you need to determine if this is an issue caused by cold temps or not. If you have a garage that you can put a heater in overnight and hopefully keep temp above freezing that would be great. If the car starts then we know it's a cold only issue, if it doesn't start then we look at more potential issues.

Does the car sound like it's wanting to start up or doess it sound more like a free spinning fast start? If your belt broke or stripped teeth the crank will still turn and just sound like it's spinning faster than normal. You can pull the view plug on the timing cover and have your wife crank the motor, if the cam gear turns, most likely your fine as far as no broken or stripped belt.
It's supposed to be in the 30s-40s this coming week so hopefully that will help. When cranking it does sound normal, although it does sound a tad slower, no free spin, I get a a pop like it might of wanted to start, then you hear puff puff puff

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Post by sidepipe87 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:49 pm

...like it's firing through the exhaust?
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Post by occasional demons » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:36 pm

This cranked normal, and the codes took their sweet time showing up.

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Post by nerox » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:24 am

mickeytopher wrote:
sirvaliant_98 wrote:If possible you need to determine if this is an issue caused by cold temps or not. If you have a garage that you can put a heater in overnight and hopefully keep temp above freezing that would be great. If the car starts then we know it's a cold only issue, if it doesn't start then we look at more potential issues.

Does the car sound like it's wanting to start up or doess it sound more like a free spinning fast start? If your belt broke or stripped teeth the crank will still turn and just sound like it's spinning faster than normal. You can pull the view plug on the timing cover and have your wife crank the motor, if the cam gear turns, most likely your fine as far as no broken or stripped belt.
It's supposed to be in the 30s-40s this coming week so hopefully that will help. When cranking it does sound normal, although it does sound a tad slower, no free spin, I get a a pop like it might of wanted to start, then you hear puff puff puff
Have the same issue on my red R/T, holding down the gas pedal when starting usually works, but i've never found the underlying issue :(
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Post by mickeytopher » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:16 am

nerox wrote:
mickeytopher wrote:
sirvaliant_98 wrote:If possible you need to determine if this is an issue caused by cold temps or not. If you have a garage that you can put a heater in overnight and hopefully keep temp above freezing that would be great. If the car starts then we know it's a cold only issue, if it doesn't start then we look at more potential issues.

Does the car sound like it's wanting to start up or doess it sound more like a free spinning fast start? If your belt broke or stripped teeth the crank will still turn and just sound like it's spinning faster than normal. You can pull the view plug on the timing cover and have your wife crank the motor, if the cam gear turns, most likely your fine as far as no broken or stripped belt.
It's supposed to be in the 30s-40s this coming week so hopefully that will help. When cranking it does sound normal, although it does sound a tad slower, no free spin, I get a a pop like it might of wanted to start, then you hear puff puff puff
Have the same issue on my red R/T, holding down the gas pedal when starting usually works, but i've never found the underlying issue :(
I tried flooring it and it almost started a couple of times. I started messing with the Cam sensor, and sensor part it self slid right out from the where it bolts in. The sensor was covered in oil, and so was the connection. I'm taking the head off anyways so I'll check a few other things out while I'm at it.

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Post by Fuzzyneon » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:16 am

mickeytopher wrote:
nerox wrote:
mickeytopher wrote: It's supposed to be in the 30s-40s this coming week so hopefully that will help. When cranking it does sound normal, although it does sound a tad slower, no free spin, I get a a pop like it might of wanted to start, then you hear puff puff puff
Have the same issue on my red R/T, holding down the gas pedal when starting usually works, but i've never found the underlying issue :(
I tried flooring it and it almost started a couple of times. I started messing with the Cam sensor, and sensor part it self slid right out from the where it bolts in. The sensor was covered in oil, and so was the connection. I'm taking the head off anyways so I'll check a few other things out while I'm at it.
not sure on 2gns but to test cam sensor unplug it and start it it will crank longer but should kick over works with 1gns
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Post by sidepipe87 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:08 pm

I'm calling a broken timing belt. Wanna place bets on this?? :lol:

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Post by mickeytopher » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:05 am

So my dad told me that he would foot the bill. So i got it towed in and it looks like there was some bent valves. So now it has all new exhaust valves, new timing belt and water pump new thermostat and he changed the oil. Now shes running like a champ. I put about 110 miles on it and only used about a quarter tank.

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Post by Gnuserup » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:23 pm

Have to dig this thread out...

As nerox' red R/T now is mine since a couple of months, the issue of cranking but not starting came back this morning.
Nerox hasn't found the cause. I myself drove the R/T about 3.000 miles in summer this year without any problems.
Today morning it got a little cold outside, possibly the coldest morning for the R/T here, about 5'C.

Cranking, cranking, cranking...

I unfortunately haven't tried the pedal-thing. Will do this next step.

It would be interesting, if replacing the valves finally fixed the problem for mickey.

My R/T is close to 90.000 miles now, but that's really nothing I guess. Though it needs more oil than my other neons.
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Post by occasional demons » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:41 pm

mickeytopher only had to replace the valves because the timing belt snapped. It sounds like your issue is different, since it happened earlier. At 90,000, the chances of a belt breaking are not extremely high, but also not impossible.

I would remove the air filter, and pour a small amount of fuel into the throttle body. You will have to open the throttle to let it go in. Then see if that helps the cold start. If it does, you may need a new temp sensor, or the injectors aren't flowing well enough.

A good cold start needs about an 8:1 fuel air ratio. If the pump is weak, or the injectors not as good as they could be, it might actually be too lean for a cold start.

A temp sender that is telling the PCM that it is 23ºC when it is actually closer to 5ºC will also not give the injectors the correct pulse with to get enough fuel in there.
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Post by Gnuserup » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:07 pm

Great, I'll go for that next.

The belt has been done, I guess about 10.000 miles ago
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