Various questions/BRAKE DISCUSSION

OB · Post by OB » Wed May 31, 2006 5:29 pm

got a few questions, figured id squeeze em all into one thread. any good info would be most appreciated, and please excuse my lack of knowledge in certain areas, im still learning everyday! here we go:

1. Got my new MSD plug wires. 2 long and 2 short (no shit). is there some special way of putting these on in order, or can i just swap one old long-one with either new long-one/ old short with new short?

2. Got a 32oz bottle of prestone dot3 universal synthetic brake fluid. first off, is this ok to use with the neon? secondly, when refilling the master cylinder (after bleeding old fluid), do I just refill to "FULL" with the new stuff? Also, when bleeding the brakes, do I want to remove ALL the old fluid, or am I supposed to leave a little to avoid getting air in the system? I need lots of help with this subject, im still not super confident about it.

I have a third one but i forgot, so ill post it when i remember! thanks in advance

Post by **racer12306** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:38 pm

1. any plug wire will work on any cylinder as long as it reaches

2. if on the bottle it says that it is suitable for systems the require DOT 3 brake fluid it should be fine. you can drain the master cylinder then fill the master cylinder. then bleed the hell out of the brakes. if you know how many feet of brake line there is then you can calculate the volume of brake fluid in the lines then you can get a rough idea as to how much brake fluid you need to pump through to get a total flush. id get another qt or two just in case, unless someone knows exactly how much fluid the system holds.

i personally think you are overdoing it, but if you feel better after this then more power to you. brake fluid doesnt wear out that fast. my car is older and has A LOT more miles than yours and it brakes fine and everything is as it was when i bought it. afaik my dad has never changed brake fluid on any vehicles. he puts 150,000 - 200,000 miles on a car before he gets rid of it.

OB · Post by OB » Wed May 31, 2006 5:42 pm

oh i know, but several people suggested it when changing pads, so i wanna do it, not only to get some (probably) better fluid in there than stock, but for the learning experience and the piece of mind if nothing else. im a bit confused about what u said. drain it, then refill it, THEN bleed them? wouldnt that leave me with an empty mast cyl and brake lines? and as far as the lines go, is it necessary to make calculations and all that jazz? if thats the case, this is starting to sound more and more like a bad idea

grambo · Post by **grambo** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:56 pm

Drain your brakes, either through the bleeders if you want to spend a week on the project, or at the master cylinder.
Add some crappy cheapo (new) fluid. Then drain again to get all the good chunks out.
Put everything back together and add new (nice, expensive) fluid. Put your cap back on your Master Cyl.
Bleed the system.
Add more fluid as needed at the cylinder.
Bleed the system.
Add more fluid as needed at the cylinder.
Bleed the system.

Then buy a Chilton's guide. They are great to have around so you can get an idea of what you are in for when you decide to tackle a project on teh OB ride...

daaboots · Post by **daaboots** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:17 am

Make sure you don't get brake fluid on your paint. It can eat through it.

OB · Post by OB » Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:34 am

grambo wrote:Drain your brakes, either through the bleeders if you want to spend a week on the project, or at the master cylinder.
Add some crappy cheapo (new) fluid. Then drain again to get all the good chunks out.
Put everything back together and add new (nice, expensive) fluid. Put your cap back on your Master Cyl.
Bleed the system.
Add more fluid as needed at the cylinder.
Bleed the system.
Add more fluid as needed at the cylinder.
Bleed the system.

Then buy a Chilton's guide. They are great to have around so you can get an idea of what you are in for when you decide to tackle a project on teh OB ride...

I have the factory service manual, and it has some info on bleeding both 'manually' and 'standard procedure'. the whole thing perplexes me, I dont really understand it at all. From what I understand, i swap in the new brake pads first, then proceed to bleed the system. what i dont get is exactly how it's done. some people make it seem easy, now im hearing that i need to replace the old fluid and then drain it again, THEN put the good stuff in. but after that u say to bleed them again, then add, then bleed, then add again. Im not sure what you mean by that. How is it bled thru the master cylinder?

grambo · Post by **grambo** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:50 am

OK bro. I'll lay it out for you. The hydraulic connections @ the master cylinder can be removed to drain the majority of the fuild from the system into some sort of container. The rest of the old fluid can be drained through the bleeders at each caliper.
Yes, replace the pads FIRST. (Use the C-clamp/chunk of wood method above.) Reassemble your brakes.
The reason I say to add some new-crappy fluid to the system and drain it again is that you will notice a "dusty-black film, or powder" in the fluid you have already removed from the vehicle. That "powder" is actually solids suspended in the fluid. Solids are no good for a hydraulic system.
I use the crappy-new fluid to help remove as much of that "powder" as possible from my system.
Then add some really good fluid like MOTUL 600, or SCHAEFER'S PRODUCTS. ( I use the latter)
Once you have filled your master cylinder, your lines will obviously be full of air. (Most of it will bubble up into the master cylinder as you slowly fill it.) You will need to bleed each corner of the car. (Make sure that when you bleed them you do it into a container FULL of new fluid. The bleed hose you attach should be completely submerged in fluid so you can watch the pretty bubbles. (my favorite part)

OB · Post by OB » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:53 pm

Will I have to bleed the rears too, even though im not replacing anything back there? so after doing the pads, I drain the master cylinder, then fill it with crappy fluid and repeat the exact same procedure till the build up is gone? then after that i need to get the air bubbles out via the lines? At that point i just have someone pump the pedal a few times then open the line and drain it? then refill the master cylinder with that fluid? man thats confusing!

grambo · Post by **grambo** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:08 pm

If you plan on "replacing" your fluid, then yes, you will need to bleed each corner of the vehicle.
And I would just pour the crappy fluid in and let it drain through the system, carrying the crud with it.
Then put everything back together and put in the good fluid.
Bleeding the brakes takes two people. Fill up you system through the master cylinder and let the bubbles settle out. Cap it.
Then put a hose on the end of the bleeder nut that leads into a container of fluid (new). Have a buddy push the pedal (SLOWLY)while you crack the bleeder (SLOWLY) and watch as the bubbles appear iin your container. When they go away, close the bleeder. Then do it again till the bubbles go away.
Repeat the process at each corner.
Check your master cylinder level and top it off.
Test yur brake pedal "feel"
If its good, test your brakes on the driveway, then the road.
Make sure you bed your pads properly too.

OB · Post by OB » Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:43 pm

So the first thing ill do is drain the master cylinder, then bleed the lines at each corner. after that im gonna refill the master cylinder with cheap fluid, correct so far? do i need to pump the brakes prior to removing the master cylinder cap? then refill with crappy fluid and have someone slowly depress the pedal in one full motion while using a tube to drain the fluid from the lines? then after all that im gonna refill it and test the feel after putting everything back together?

grambo · Post by **grambo** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:52 pm

When you are adding the "crappy" fluid to the system/master cylinder just let it drain through like the old stuff. What we aretrying to avoid is the introduction of anymore debris into the lines. Just brake fluid.
Leave your bleeders wide open when you add it and just let it leak out for a while. The crack open the master cylinder again and drain it out.
Having someone pump the brakes to drain will expedite the process. Just do it slowly and one step at a time.You don't wanna' forget something and piss fluid all over the underside of your car and a clean garage floor.
Sounds like you'vegot the right idea man. Read through your manual a few times so you are familiar then go for it. its the best way to learn when you are turnin' a wrench and a 20 minute job takes 12 hours. haha

OB · Post by OB » Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:13 pm

sounds to me like the hardest part is gonna be yankin all the wheels off!

I think i have the idea down, thanks for all your help grambo, ill prob be doing this in the next week or so. ill surely be back on freakin out cuz i screwed something up, but i know u guys are here to help me out so im not too worried!

kc2005ptgt · Post by **kc2005ptgt** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:53 pm

make sure you bleed from the farthest corner around to the closest corner to the master cylinder. On our car I believe it is the passenger rear, correct me if I am wrong.

As for the answer to the third question, I will tell you once you remember it.

:):)

OB · Post by OB » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:17 am

lol thanks mang, yeah i know about the bleeding deal, im just nervous about the whole thing in general. Cant afford to screw this up and kill myself!

grambo · Post by **grambo** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:32 am

You'll be fine. Even if you screw it up you'll know right away. It won't mysteriously "let go" two weeks later while your cruising through the canyon on 29....

OB · Post by OB » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:39 pm

ok so im gonna go over this one last time before we get into this tomorrow afternoon. heres what ive taken from all the answers from u guys, and some questions ive come up with:

BLEEDING AND REPLACING BRAKE FLIUD---

1. change brake pads and put everything back together.
2. drain fluid from lines at the master cylinder.
3. bleed lines at all 4 corners, starting with front pass and moving around to the front driver last.
4. fill mast cyl with cheap fluid and allow it to pass thru system and back out lines.
5. Fill mast cyl with good fluid and seal tightly.
6. Bleed lines again for air bubbles, using a tube that is submerged in brake fluid at the other end. Refill mast cyl as needed and repeat.
7. Put everything back together and test system and brake feel.
8. The end

ok heres my questions:

1. how do i go about draining from the mast cyl? Will i be able to run the lines into a container easily?
2. before draining ANY fluid from the mast cyl lines, do i need to pump the brakes? if so how much, and do they need to be held down while draining?
3. when initally bleeding the lines at the wheels (after draining the mast cyl) do i need to close the mast cyl tightly? do the brakes need to be pumped (or repumped) and/or held again?
4. after bleeding the mast cyl AND brake lines of fluid and air bubbles, do i keep BOTH ends open when flushing with cheap fluid? (In the mast cyl and straight out the brake lines?) Will I need to use the submerged in fluid method at this point or not until the final bleed with the good fluid?
5. when bleeding the system (at the lines) after refilling the mast cyl with the GOOD fluid, do i again need to pump the pedal and hold it?
6. once all bubbles are out and i have refilled the mast cyl completely (to the "full" mark), is that the end of the line, or do i need to check regularly to see if the level of fluid is going down? will the pedal being depressed(or vice versa) affect the level once i seal everything up and start driving again? this is the part im a bit worried about so all details are appreciated.

SORRY FOR THE LONG POST, but im a perfectionist and im very new to the brake system. please bear with me and treat this as an absolute noob post. Im learning as i go, and id feel so much better going into this tomorrow with more confidence! thanks again

ob

btw will a 2.5" opening, 1.2" depth c-clamp be big enough for the caliper piston or should i get a diff one?

Post by **racer12306** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:10 pm

o no, i can see OB's post count reaching 2100 tomorrow.

jk

OB · Post by OB » Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:17 pm

BUMP! todays the day someone help me out and check out my post above pleeeease

lolelectricbluesxt · Post by **lolelectricbluesxt** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:20 pm

Yeah and then write a big how to' with pics and crap OB so i can learn how to do it too.

Vital info this is. You already helped with my shifter install ;p

OB · Post by OB » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:35 am

Got the brake pads done yesterday. Boy was that a long day.

. Heres the scoop: We started on the left side, and it took a good amount of time but things went relatively smoothly for my first time workin with the neons brake system. After a store trip for some more supplies and cold drinks, we finished the left and moved to work on the right. Taking pics along the way for a how-to that ill be writing up in the next few days, we began to take the brakes apart. After awhile of working on them and once the new pads were in, a huge problem surfaced: The caliper refused to seat correctly in the steering knuckle. With the new pads in, we tried every damn thing we could think of, using the finished left side as a guide. Well, after hours (yes hours) of wrestling with the caliper, we were just about ready to give up. Then i remembered that we had taken pics of the beginning steps, and we looked at them to see what might be wrong. turns out the left and right knuckles are quite differently shaped, and the pic showed the stock right knuckle/caliper combo as being quite different than the left. With the new found revelation and quite a bit of relief, we put it back together and took it for a spin (finally!). After braking in, everything felt great, and we decided to save the bleeding project for another day. Anyways, did everyone know about the knuckles being different? That was sure a pain in the ass!

Marthby · Post by **Marthby** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:17 pm

orangeblastsxt wrote:Got the brake pads done yesterday. Boy was that a long day. . Heres the scoop:.... (insert post contents here) ...Anyways, did everyone know about the knuckles being different? That was sure a pain in the ass!

lol, i replaced my brake pads yesterday as well and i too had problems with the knuckles. it took me about half an hour to figure out how to put the caliper back on cuz of the different knuckles.

OB · Post by OB » Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:19 pm

I was tryin to figure out what went wrong, and i even suspected the knuckles to be different but i guess i should have taken that theory for seriously before spending over an hour trying to get the caliper to sit like the other one. any idea WHY the knuckles are different? is it because the axles are different or is it for some other reason?

grambo · Post by **grambo** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:32 pm

*Thats a new one bro. (Sorry I never called last night, I got called into work..

didn't get home till after 11pm) Anyway, my calipers are the same on both sides. Only trouble I have ever had was the pads "floating" in the caliper and not aligning on the install. A little finesse and they go right on.
I wanna' see pics of this..damn..

OB · Post by OB » Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:34 pm

I got some pics, but not of both sides. Its clearly visible with the wheel off, when i bleed the lines ill take mass pics and show everyone. damn that sucked!