SRT 55mm TB Mod For 2.0 NGC Neons

This is the place to ask questions about your engine components like cams, valves, pistons… just anything that is generally "engine" specific. This also includes questions about exhaust systems such as exhaust manifolds, piping size, mufflers, ect...
User avatar
kevo
2GN Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:00 am

SRT 55mm TB Mod For 2.0 NGC Neons

Post by kevo » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:45 am

I have been working on this off and on for over a year now. After casually speaking to racer12306 about it the other day, i decided to post pics of

Ironically, the srt throttle body and spacer combined is the same length as the stock 2.0 throttle body. Unfortunately the srt throttle body tapers down to 52mm at the plate and then dumps back up to 55mm at the spacer. Of course, the only solution to this is to have the throttle body itself ported to 55mm and a new plate added. I will not mention who did the porting. I waited over a month and gave them two throttle bodies, one as a core and one to port. It took them over a month to get one back to me. Their service was not great and to be honest, i do not feel it's a good idea to advertise their service.

The Key is the throttle body spacer. The outlet to the spacer is just too large to be held down by a coupler. The outlet is milled down to a traditional lip. There is also a small amount of material drilled out of the spacer to allow a set of nuts to hold the assembly together while giving clearance for a coupler. My spacer also has some areas shaved as a lame attempt to reduce weight. Pay no attention to those. :D

Tests should start tomorrow. I post my findings in the next couple of days.

The bolts are the stock throttle body bolts. Since they are not attaching to an intake manifold, they have been cut to length and i simply found a set of lock nuts to match at the local hardware store.

Image


side view of the spacer
Image


Face view of the spacer. I accidentally ported my spacer a little too much. It's almost 60mm. I'm actively looking for another one; I would rather have a true 55mm all the way around.
Image


Face view of the throttle body. Notice that i also took out the torx set screw for the throttle idle and put a traditional bolt there. I occasionally suffer from idle undershoot.
Image


Example of the throttle body side assembled with sensors.
Image

Fully assembled throttle body.
Image
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
2k1MotorSport
2011 Gold Contributor
Posts: 2560
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:15 pm
Location: Lansdale, PA

Post by 2k1MotorSport » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:48 am

lookin awesome! Not that i would need to buy one, but i'm sure they will sell.
-Scott
Image

User avatar
Diablo0
2GN.org Owner/Admin
Posts: 12576
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:20 pm
Location: Greenville, SC
Contact:

Post by Diablo0 » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:00 am

Lookin good...

My guess for the narrowing is to get a little bit of a venturi effect for the vacuum line that runs into the TB.
-Jason
Black '02 Neon R/T | White '02 Neon R/T - SRT-4 Engine Swap
Image
^^^ no, that isn't what I look like haha
Try not to become a man of success but rather to become a man of value. - Albert Einstein

User avatar
TN.Frank
2GN Member
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:11 pm
Location: Crossville, TN., U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by TN.Frank » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:20 am

I hear that the reason that our cars have that 2k rpm shudder is because we have no venturia in the cheap plastic TB that comes on the car. If you could make the butterfly area 55mm but make the intake area 58-60mm that'd give us a venturia so we'd bet better velociety. Looks like your work is coming along nicely. At 55mm it should be better then stock but not so large(like the 60mm TBs) to throw a code. So, does your set-up work with the stock bellows tube? Once you get things up and running if the price is right I'd like to pick one up, I totally hate my PLASTIC TB. Keep us posted.
?You know what the difference between me and you really is? You look out there and see a horde of evil, brain eating zombies. I look out there and see a target rich environment.?
-Dillis D. Freeman Jr. 11/2/2001

User avatar
kevo
2GN Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:00 am

Post by kevo » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:59 am

Diablo0 wrote:Lookin good...

My guess for the narrowing is to get a little bit of a venturi effect for the vacuum line that runs into the TB.
Yes, theres a few theories going around to why they continue to use this tapered venturi design. I can't attest to how this feels on an NA car just yet but most srt guys can feel the difference, get a few more horses from it and help their throttle response. If all i get from this is better throttle response from a stop, i will be happy.
TN.Frank wrote:I hear that the reason that our cars have that 2k rpm shudder is because we have no venturia in the cheap plastic TB that comes on the car. If you could make the butterfly area 55mm but make the intake area 58-60mm that'd give us a venturia so we'd bet better velociety. Looks like your work is coming along nicely. At 55mm it should be better then stock but not so large(like the 60mm TBs) to throw a code. So, does your set-up work with the stock bellows tube? Once you get things up and running if the price is right I'd like to pick one up, I totally hate my PLASTIC TB. Keep us posted.
I don't see why it wouldn't work with the stock bellows tube if you mill the spacer down correctly. Bolting to the stock airbox is another story.

Price on this is as much, if not more than a brand new throttle body from modern. The porting and milling itself is probably the most expensive part. Darrell Cox is by far the most expensive 55mm throttle body vendor. PTPerformance is another rather expensive option. There is also the guy over at throttlebodys.com.

Darrell Cox also port the spacer a bit although it's not really necessary. They also do the half shaft mod. PtPerformance does none of the above. The guy that runs throttlebodys.com does the halfshaft mod and ports the spacers. None of them modify the spacer lip. Infact, none of them even know what i am doing right now.

You will also need an SRT IAC. Your best bet is to find someone that is parting out a crashed SRT and try to buy the entire throttle body assembly from them. the SRT TPS will not work as the cannon plug is different. you will need to use your stock neon tps. It will bolt right up to the stock shaft although you may need to shave the torx bolts just a little bit as they are just a hair too long. The neon TPS is a little thinner than the SRT TPS.

I am very confident that as long as i do not throw a code, i should feel a difference with this throttle body. It will go on later today and i should have full results tomorrow afternoon.

User avatar
TN.Frank
2GN Member
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:11 pm
Location: Crossville, TN., U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by TN.Frank » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:23 pm

Here's the way I'm running now:
Image
I made up a bracket to bolt the TB to using the top two holes from where it bolted to the stock air box. I'd need a couple holes in approx. the same location to bolt any aftermarket TB up to hold it in place since the bellows tube gives zero support to the TB.
And no, I'm not sucking much hot air since there a large open space where the stock air box came out that allows plenty of air into the filter AND the Ram Air that I put on is also still in place and pushing air into the filter area as well. Anyway, let us know how things turn out and if you throw a code or not.
?You know what the difference between me and you really is? You look out there and see a horde of evil, brain eating zombies. I look out there and see a target rich environment.?
-Dillis D. Freeman Jr. 11/2/2001

occasional demons
Junior Admin
Posts: 20306
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: Ashland Ohio

Post by occasional demons » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:00 pm

kevo wrote:Yes, theres a few theories going around to why they continue to use this tapered venturi design.
From what I know from the Jeep stuff the neck down directly under the throttle plate is basically for driveability. It acts to keep the space between the throttle plate and the bore smaller a bit longer to avoid that lurch when starting from a dead stop. This is mainly aimed at ATX equipped cars. It does work for that purpose. The 3.0 Sundance/Shadows don't have the neck down and they can be a pain to get a smooth start from a traffic light. With the MTX's it isn't too much of an issue, But then MTX cars are the minority...
Bill
Olha Koba, a psychologist in Kyiv, said that “anger and hate in this situation is a normal reaction and important to validate.” But it is important to channel it into something useful, she said, such as making incendiary bombs out of empty bottles.
2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
2021 Forester

Pizza Boy
2GN Member
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:51 pm
Location: NORCAL

Post by Pizza Boy » Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:35 pm

im curious as to who the vendor in question is? ie the port work vendor...mainly so i do not send any of my parts to them...-Eric
2005 Red SRT-4 (track car)
2005 Silver Srt-4 ( commuter )
2000 Neon ES ( turnover car)
1998 Ram Sport ( workhorse )
1979 Camaro RS w/ Iroc Z 350HO minus TPI
Image

User avatar
BlackRoseRacing
2009 Platinum Contributor
Posts: 12737
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 8:58 am

Post by BlackRoseRacing » Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:52 pm

He's probably not going to post the info due to lawsuits that could arise...
It's good to see someone working on an NGC TB upgrade :)
It would be nice to see someone do my Mustang TB setup on an NGC to see if it throws any codes....

User avatar
kevo
2GN Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:00 am

Post by kevo » Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:54 pm

occasional demons wrote:
kevo wrote:Yes, theres a few theories going around to why they continue to use this tapered venturi design.
From what I know from the Jeep stuff the neck down directly under the throttle plate is basically for driveability. It acts to keep the space between the throttle plate and the bore smaller a bit longer to avoid that lurch when starting from a dead stop. This is mainly aimed at ATX equipped cars. It does work for that purpose. The 3.0 Sundance/Shadows don't have the neck down and they can be a pain to get a smooth start from a traffic light. With the MTX's it isn't too much of an issue, But then MTX cars are the minority...
I thought thats what the dovetail at the end of the throttle body plate was for. Guess you learn something new every time.

Pizza Boy wrote:im curious as to who the vendor in question is? ie the port work vendor...mainly so i do not send any of my parts to them...-Eric
I really don't want to say. For all i know, it could have been a miscommunication. I will say that i do believe that most of these vendors including the two biggest 60mm TB sellers have done a piss poor job at helping real enthusiasts with this problem. None of them have bothered investigating the problem or helping out in any way. To make things worse, either of these two vendors have any kind of warning for NGC users of the possibility of this problem. The three others i mentioned in my previous post, only one of them responded to some of my questions in a timely manner. He however, was not overly interested as his sales of SRT throttle bodies was practically non existent.

I have already run into a snag. Apparently the bolts i have to hold the throttle cable bracket are not the ones i need. :(
BlackRoseRacing wrote:He's probably not going to post the info due to lawsuits that could arise...
It's good to see someone working on an NGC TB upgrade :)
It would be nice to see someone do my Mustang TB setup on an NGC to see if it throws any codes....
As long as you provide the Mustang TB i will test it! :laughing3:

Pizza Boy
2GN Member
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:51 pm
Location: NORCAL

Post by Pizza Boy » Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:57 pm

ok, what is a ngc?
2005 Red SRT-4 (track car)
2005 Silver Srt-4 ( commuter )
2000 Neon ES ( turnover car)
1998 Ram Sport ( workhorse )
1979 Camaro RS w/ Iroc Z 350HO minus TPI
Image

racer12306
Junior Admin
Posts: 16126
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:53 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:

Post by racer12306 » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:04 pm

NGC is the style computer that all 03+ neons (including SRT's) had. It is a better program that aims for maximum effiency.
-Frank
Member of Spork Racing
Forum issues: racer12306@2gn.org
Forum Behavior
Support your favorite forum, DONATE!

User avatar
kevo
2GN Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:00 am

Post by kevo » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:16 pm

Pizza Boy wrote:ok, what is a ngc?
basically this project stems from the fact that a number of 03+ neon users have been suffering from problems when installing a 60mm throttle body into their cars. Most notable issue is the car going into limp mode. The idea is to find a smaller throttle body in order to give the car more air while preventing the car from going into limp mode.

Pizza Boy
2GN Member
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:51 pm
Location: NORCAL

Post by Pizza Boy » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:22 pm

thanks guys...
2005 Red SRT-4 (track car)
2005 Silver Srt-4 ( commuter )
2000 Neon ES ( turnover car)
1998 Ram Sport ( workhorse )
1979 Camaro RS w/ Iroc Z 350HO minus TPI
Image

User avatar
TN.Frank
2GN Member
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:11 pm
Location: Crossville, TN., U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by TN.Frank » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:31 pm

60mm is too large so the TPS and the MAP sensors don't agree on the air flow, the computer thinks this means that there's something wrong with the engine and retards the timing to protect the engine(i.e. "limp mode) so you can drive the car home safely.
Does our NGC cars have a 49mm or a 52mm TB, I'm still not clear on this? I'm sure there is a point of enlargement that the NGC will put up with and not throw a code or go into limp mode, we just need to see how large that is. 55mm is perfect for a 2.0L engine, why the TB manufactures didn't go with that size(I know early on they had that size but they've droped it.) instead of the 60mm is beyond me.
As I've said before, if we could get a MAP sensor that would feed the computer proper info for the TPS so that the computer would see that everything is still ok that would be one way to fix things but I have no idea of who we could talk to in order to get one made up.
?You know what the difference between me and you really is? You look out there and see a horde of evil, brain eating zombies. I look out there and see a target rich environment.?
-Dillis D. Freeman Jr. 11/2/2001

occasional demons
Junior Admin
Posts: 20306
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: Ashland Ohio

Post by occasional demons » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:32 am

The ideal TB would be a staged two barrel like the eighties holley carbs used on the 2.2 engines. The primary would give good throttle response/low rpm use and the secondary for the 8000 rpm runs. But the cost is what keeps them off the market. The OEM carbs were over $500, but you could get them aftermarket for less. What kills me is the TB's have less parts/cost to build but they charge just as much as a carb. I can see it if all the sensors were included, but ususally you have to swap your sensors onto the aftermarket TB.
Edit:
kevo wrote: "I thought thats what the dovetail at the end of the throttle body plate was for. Guess you learn something new every time." It basically does the same thing, altho perhaps not with as much impact by its self as it covers less than half of the circumference of the bore. I never gave it much thought, so I learned a little, too. :D
Bill
Olha Koba, a psychologist in Kyiv, said that “anger and hate in this situation is a normal reaction and important to validate.” But it is important to channel it into something useful, she said, such as making incendiary bombs out of empty bottles.
2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
2021 Forester

racer12306
Junior Admin
Posts: 16126
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:53 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:

Post by racer12306 » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:11 pm

All 2gns have a 52mm TB
-Frank
Member of Spork Racing
Forum issues: racer12306@2gn.org
Forum Behavior
Support your favorite forum, DONATE!

User avatar
TN.Frank
2GN Member
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:11 pm
Location: Crossville, TN., U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by TN.Frank » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:16 pm

racer12306 wrote:All 2gns have a 52mm TB
Thanks. :thumbup:
?You know what the difference between me and you really is? You look out there and see a horde of evil, brain eating zombies. I look out there and see a target rich environment.?
-Dillis D. Freeman Jr. 11/2/2001

User avatar
kevo
2GN Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:00 am

Post by kevo » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:28 pm

racer12306 wrote:All 2gns have a 52mm TB at the plate
fixed :thumbup:

User avatar
TN.Frank
2GN Member
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:11 pm
Location: Crossville, TN., U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by TN.Frank » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:34 pm

So is "the plate" the same as the butterfly?
?You know what the difference between me and you really is? You look out there and see a horde of evil, brain eating zombies. I look out there and see a target rich environment.?
-Dillis D. Freeman Jr. 11/2/2001

User avatar
kevo
2GN Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:00 am

Post by kevo » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:36 am

TN.Frank wrote:So is "the plate" the same as the butterfly?
yes

User avatar
TN.Frank
2GN Member
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:11 pm
Location: Crossville, TN., U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by TN.Frank » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:36 pm

Now for the BIG question of the night. Why didn't Dodge just bump up the TB another 3mm so we'd have a perfect match for our 2.0L engines. :roll:
?You know what the difference between me and you really is? You look out there and see a horde of evil, brain eating zombies. I look out there and see a target rich environment.?
-Dillis D. Freeman Jr. 11/2/2001

User avatar
kevo
2GN Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:00 am

Post by kevo » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:47 pm

well, i ran the car today. the difference is night and day. The difference is simillar to when i had my 60mm throttle body. Throttle response is excellent from a full stop. This was my biggest gripe was the slow response from a full stop. The car has seen some highway time but i have not given it a full speed OP check yet. That should happen very soon.

pics of the throttle body installed on the car.

Image
Image
Image

User avatar
TN.Frank
2GN Member
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:11 pm
Location: Crossville, TN., U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by TN.Frank » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:54 pm

Looking good, keep us posted on how things go. :thumbup:
?You know what the difference between me and you really is? You look out there and see a horde of evil, brain eating zombies. I look out there and see a target rich environment.?
-Dillis D. Freeman Jr. 11/2/2001

User avatar
kevo
2GN Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:00 am

Post by kevo » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:13 pm

TN.Frank wrote:Looking good, keep us posted on how things go. :thumbup:
as far as i'm concerned, it's done and i won. I really don't race but i am always in the hunt to give my car a little more pep. The throttle body has been on the car for over a week now. I was never really able to test the car as i lent the car to my father for the week. If your car is a daily driver then i can pretty much tell you with confidence that this is a great mod. This last check is just to see if it will sustain a very very fast run.

NickKo
2009 Gold Contributor
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:24 am
Location: IL./WI.border

Re: SRT 55mm TB Mod For 2.0 NGC Neons

Post by NickKo » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:39 pm

More good news ( I *think* )......

kevo wrote:Example of the throttle body side assembled with sensors.
Image
This looks very much like the design of the 1st-generation Neon Throttle Body, to my eyes.

If so, this opens up the possibility of other useable throttle body options for the 2nd gen N/A cars.
There are plenty of reworked 55mm 1st gen Neon Throttle Bodies already in use.

By "usable" I don't mean straight-up 'bolt-on', but something that can be easily reworked to fit, the way some 1st gen Neon guys modify 60mm Jeep throttle bodies to work on a Neon.

Since I have a modified 60mm Jeep T/B running one of my 1st gen Neons, well..... I wonder how difficult it would be to adapt it onto a 2nd gen. :)

-Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009

User avatar
kevo
2GN Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:00 am

Re: SRT 55mm TB Mod For 2.0 NGC Neons

Post by kevo » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:50 am

NickKo wrote:More good news ( I *think* )......

kevo wrote:Example of the throttle body side assembled with sensors.
Image
This looks very much like the design of the 1st-generation Neon Throttle Body, to my eyes.

If so, this opens up the possibility of other useable throttle body options for the 2nd gen N/A cars.
There are plenty of reworked 55mm 1st gen Neon Throttle Bodies already in use.

By "usable" I don't mean straight-up 'bolt-on', but something that can be easily reworked to fit, the way some 1st gen Neon guys modify 60mm Jeep throttle bodies to work on a Neon.

Since I have a modified 60mm Jeep T/B running one of my 1st gen Neons, well..... I wonder how difficult it would be to adapt it onto a 2nd gen. :)

-Nick

Wll there's a yes and a no to this. I peeked at your sig, it shows you have two first gens and one 2000. The 2000 model year still had a 4 wire IAC instead of the more modern 2 wire. The main reason i used an srt throttle body was because of the 2 wire IAC. You can probably retrofit a jeep 60mm throttle body to your 2000 neon by creating an adaptor plate. Have a look at the mustang 65mm throttle body posts by BlackRoseRacing. I'm sure you can get some inspiration for your possible project.

occasional demons
Junior Admin
Posts: 20306
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: Ashland Ohio

Re: SRT 55mm TB Mod For 2.0 NGC Neons

Post by occasional demons » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:47 am

kevo wrote:Wll there's a yes and a no to this. I peeked at your sig, it shows you have two first gens and one 2000. The 2000 model year still had a 4 wire IAC instead of the more modern 2 wire. The main reason i used an srt throttle body was because of the 2 wire IAC. You can probably retrofit a jeep 60mm throttle body to your 2000 neon by creating an adaptor plate. Have a look at the mustang 65mm throttle body posts by BlackRoseRacing. I'm sure you can get some inspiration for your possible project.
Exactly, I would have used my 99 XJ TB on my '01 except for this, I was too lazy to make a work around for the IAC. I still may try to fab a stand alone IAC unit, So TB's without one built in could be used.
Bill
Olha Koba, a psychologist in Kyiv, said that “anger and hate in this situation is a normal reaction and important to validate.” But it is important to channel it into something useful, she said, such as making incendiary bombs out of empty bottles.
2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
2021 Forester

NickKo
2009 Gold Contributor
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:24 am
Location: IL./WI.border

Post by NickKo » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:27 pm

Good input. Thank you both for your responses, gentlemen. :thumbup:

-Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009

Dmoney11xb
Fresh Fish
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:39 pm

Re:

Post by Dmoney11xb » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:54 pm

TN.Frank wrote:
Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:20 am
I hear that the reason that our cars have that 2k rpm shudder is because we have no venturia in the cheap plastic TB that comes on the car. If you could make the butterfly area 55mm but make the intake area 58-60mm that'd give us a venturia so we'd bet better velociety. Looks like your work is coming along nicely. At 55mm it should be better then stock but not so large(like the 60mm TBs) to throw a code. So, does your set-up work with the stock bellows tube? Once you get things up and running if the price is right I'd like to pick one up, I totally hate my PLASTIC TB. Keep us posted.
I’d like one too! I can find a 60mm anywhere for my 04 r/t

Post Reply

Return to “Engine”