Timing issues P0016

Jotun · Post by **Jotun** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:44 pm

Hi all I have a question and hope we have some pretty savvy folks here that may be able to help me.
I recently changed my timing belt and clutch in an 03 sxt 2.0. When I finished I started the car up and it ran perfectly no problem I drove it for a 15 min test drive parked it and about 2 hours later I took it into town and after about 35 minutes I was coming up to a stop sign and the car stalled so I attempted to start it again and it started but ran like total crap then immediately died. I had it towed back to the house and pulled the codes from the OBD II and it was a P0016 cam/crank missalignment. I figured that the Timing belt probably skipped a tooth but I went and tore the engine apart to find out that the timing is still perfect no slippage unless it slipped exactly 180 degrees which is extremely unlikely. So I went on and assumed the Cam Sensor or the crank sensor had to have went bad so I replaced both and still no luck. I then started thinking there has to be a shorted or pinched wire somewhere so after chasing wires from each sensor all the way back to the ECU/PCM and everything is .5 ohms resistance and 5 volts of power to the 1 and 3 pins so no pinched or crossed wires. I am thinking there is probably a diode thats fried but I dont know where it is.

Now my question can a deffective ECU/PCM cause this problem and if so how do you test an ECU?

I would like to thank everyone ahead of time for you help.

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Post by **occasional demons** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:11 pm

Did you check the pin in the cam that aligns the sprocket? If you didn't get the bolt tight enough it may have bent or worse sheared. If it sheared then your valves are toast. The timing marks will line up, as the sprocket will turn with the belt, but the cam will not be turning with the sprocket. The bolt must be torqued to spec., as the tension is what keeps the cam and sprocket together. The pin is only to align them, it is not strong enough to turn the cam.
Sorry, but this is the only thing I can think of that will cause your scenario. It is easy to forget to torque the cam bolt, I know I almost did when I replaced my belt. Double checks FTW!

Jotun · Post by **Jotun** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:12 am

I never checked the torque on the cam sprocket I know its tight though because I am getting 160 psi +/- 5psi in all four cylinders so that would mean the valves are opening and closing properly i believe

I am about to just buy a new ecu because this is driving me nuts

Post by **occasional demons** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:03 am

If you have compression, your valves are definitely opening and closing, but that doesn't mean the pin hasn't shifted. If you didn't torque the bolt I would at least inspect the pin. On NGC engines the timing only gives about a half tooth off when it sets a code. IIRC

Jotun · Post by **Jotun** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:09 pm

noob question- Whats NGC?

Here are some pics of the timing I will check the pin and let you know if the cam gear slipped

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h105/ ... C10246.jpg

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h105/ ... C10244.jpg

Post by **occasional demons** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:19 pm

Next Gen Controller: the PCM used in '03-up cars. They keep the parameters a bit more tightly controlled. The whole drivetrain is controlled by one PCM, the transmission and engine I/O's are all tied into the same controller. This is more so with the ATX.

Jotun · Post by **Jotun** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:35 pm

really I didnt know all that jazz so could the NGC have fried diodes that would cause this issue?

Jotun · Post by **Jotun** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:29 am

Ok update I took the engine apart and you were right the cam gear slipped and sheared the pin off and the gear spun so badly that when I put the gear back on it just wobbles because it shaved enough metal off to not allow it to fit anymore.

Another question...Is this motor an "impact head" engine? So in other words did I blow the motor?

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:09 am

If you have compression like you said, then you got lucky in that aspect. Yes the engine is interference. You may have to replace the cam if the gear mounting surface is trashed, and you can't get the remaining dowel out. I would pull the head, check for damage, check the valves for proper seal by removing the rocker shafts and pouring solvent into the ports. If there is no or little seepage at the valve heads then you're prolly good. Then you might as well have the guides check/replaced, upgrade the cam, and mill the head a little while you're at it. If you don't want to pull the head, the cam can be replaced: You need to lower the timing end of the engine, and move the battery and PDC out of the way to slide it out.
Another recommendation is to leave the rocker shafts loose while torquing the cam bolt, so if anything slips the valves are out of harms way. chain vise grips work excellent for holding the cam gear.

latief · Post by **latief** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:10 am

Man, that sucks, sorry to hear about this...

Yes, unfortunately, neon engines (and most newer smaller cars) have "interference" engines.......if the timing belt snaps, or alignmnet goes horribly off (as in your case), pistons and valves are going to have an encounter that will cause damage, unless you are lucky!

I would defently check for valve and piston damage before putting everything back together....

good luck!

Edit: look at occasional's post, much more informative....

Jotun · Post by **Jotun** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:07 pm

Cool thanks for the help.... I will be pulling the head tonight I will let you know how it goes

Jotun · Post by **Jotun** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:45 am

latief · Post by **latief** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:05 am

Jotun wrote:Ok so I pulled the head and there was impact on all four piston here are some pics of what I found........

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h105/ ... C10370.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h105/ ... C10371.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h105/ ... C10372.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h105/ ... C10373.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h105/ ... C10374.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h105/ ... C10375.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h105/ ... C10376.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h105/ ... C10377.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h105/ ... C10378.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h105/ ... C10379.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h105/ ... C10380.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h105/ ... C10381.jpg

So instead of a costly rebuild and risk missing a rocker arm or piston with micro fractures I am going to replace the whole engine...Question for every one though ......

Is there a difference between an engine with an Auto and an engine with a manual transmission???????

Wow, that sucks....I'm not going to comment on the amount of the damage as I'll leave that to the gurus over here, but as for the engine question:

any engine will work fine regardless of the tranny attached (as long as you are not changing the tranny also) , the crucial thing in your case though is the engine year, it has to be from a 2003+ neon. Anything before that will not work without serious modifications, due to the NGC computer and changes in the crank trigger.....

good luck

Jotun · Post by **Jotun** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:57 am

Ok so I got a new engine and I will be installing it this weekend.....I found a smoking deal its an 05 sxt motor with only 4k miles on it complete with intake and exhaust manifold, and the entire harness with brackets and all for only 400 bucks with a 2 year warranty I will post pics and progress later

Jotun · Post by **Jotun** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:41 pm

I would like to thank everyone for their help especially occasional demons.

I just finished installing the new motor and it is running great but it is throwing a code P0522 low voltage on the oil pressure sensor.... I am assuming that the sensor is probably bad because I didn't put the one on from my old engine and the new engine has been sitting for about 4 years so my guess is that the sensor is jacked or the connections are corroded.... Other than that there is no valve chatter or knocks and after priming the engine and getting oil in the valves I connected the injectors and it started immediately.

I will be parting out the old motor I have a engine harness, Mechanical timing belt tensioner, coil pack, fuel rail, injectors, cylinder head, block and anything else you want just pm me if you are interested in anything....

Thanks again everyone

Post by **occasional demons** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:04 pm

Jotun wrote:I would like to thank everyone for their help especially occasional demons. Thanks again everyone

That's why this Forum exists!
Since you know you have oil pressure I would just swap sensors and enjoy your "new" engine. 4 years of rest is hard on valve springs, as the ones that had opened valves were in a compressed state for that long. I wouldn't sweat it too much tho, as the lifters prolly bled down enough to take some tension off. If you had some clacking, then it might have been an issue. If it were me I would keep the head and practice porting on it. You prolly wouldn't get much $ out of it with bent valves anyways.

60trim · Post by **60trim** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:58 am

I am glad to see you got this taken care of. I had this problem a little over a year ago when my timing belt snapped. Good to see you know what your doing. You asked tje right questions and went about the job the right way. Thank you. We are here to help each other out.