Car Dead ... Now It's Alive Again !!!

Post by **occasional demons** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:19 pm

I sorta figured you might be using metric measurements, but didn't want to assume that's what you meant. I figured the 14.3 was close enough to atmosphere, but the 7 psi is what threw me.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:10 am

Aha, we're strange you see, something's we do metric and others imperial.

New coil arrived this morning so gonna try that when I get home and got plugs on order too.

If those don't work then I guess I'll get some new wires.

If still no luck after that ... I'm screwed

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:43 pm

Replaced Coil ...

... Same fault still exists

Post by **occasional demons** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:55 pm

Well, before shelling out another $40 ~ for decent plug wires, I would pull the rocker cover and see if something is visibly wrong. At least if there is, you can direct the funds to where they might be needed more. If all looks good, maybe have an assistant crank the engine to see how things look in operation.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:17 pm

Can the car be run with the rocker cover off?

Post by **occasional demons** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:11 pm

Yeah, it could if you somehow supported the coil, but that wasn't actually what I meant. Just cranking it with the starter was what I had in mind. It would make a big oily mess in a hurry, actually running it.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:15 pm

ah, i did wonder about the oil !

well i've changed the spark plugs this evening and still no improvement.

what i did notice though is that plug No4 is very sooty, the other 3 are black as usual and a little damp
(smells like gas - probably from all the attempted starting i've been doing)

but 4 looks like this

I Measured the resistance of the HT leads and 1,3 and 4 are about 3.5Kohm and No2 is about 4.5Kohm but i dont know if this is abnormal. the resistance of the old and new plugs is about 6.5kohm

Post by **occasional demons** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:05 pm

Per the FSM:

Cables #1 and #4: 3500 -- 4900 ohms

Cables #2 and #3: 2950 -- 4100 ohms

With 4 as sooty as it is, possibly the injector is leaking too much fuel, or it is not firing well enough. You would think there would be an overly lean correction factor code, if the injector was faulty. The PCM would be attempting to lean it out, causing the other three cylinders to be too lean, while 4 is still way too rich.

FWIW, the Taylor Spiro pros cables I have are 300 ohms each. IIRC, the old school rule of thumb for cable resistance was 1000 ohms per inch for standard type cables. Which would be about right for the oem specs above.

I would suggest swapping the injectors to see if the sooty plug changes location with the injector, but it isn't going to help it run any better if it is the problem. So it would be a bit of work, for no real solution, other than proving a bad injector. If you can get a used one for cheap, it would be a better option to swap it out. At least if it is the injector, it would be fairly apparent, and you would be on your way.

There is really no safe way to actually test it yourself, for the spray pattern. If you had a FP gauge, you could check for leak down when off, but that is about it, and you really don't know for certain which injector it is, unless you pull them out of the IM, and just key on. Not cranking the engine, or you will have a nice cloud of highly explosive mist.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:30 am

Ah yes now that also would make sense.

I'll see if I can get 1 new one and try it, if it works I'll get the other 3 as a precautionary meaure

Post by **occasional demons** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:28 am

You can usually get all four with a rail on ebay for a reasonable amount, if you are lucky enough to find a complete set, and shipping time isn't ridiculous. A new one is a bit pricey. I'm sure there are some in the FS board, but again, IDK what time frame you are working with. I'm assuming the sooner the better.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:35 am

Well the sooner the better ideally!

How big of a job is it to remove the rocket cover?

I'd rather look at things than have to buy new ones where possible especially buying used parts

Post by **occasional demons** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:39 am

The rocker cover isn't too bad of a job.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:09 am

That's good, might try that next incase there's something obvious in there.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:41 am

I just did a few quick tests.

I unplugged the ht leads one by one ad put them near something metal then tried to start the engine, all had sparks jumping to ground so I think I can rule them out.

Also swapped over a few of the relays incase one was playing up but no difference there either

Post by **occasional demons** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:27 pm

Well if you are pulling things, pull the connector off #4 injector. It will miss, but it won't be flooding the port with fuel, if that is the problem. If it is leaking, it may still get some fuel, but I doubt it would be enough to run on, unless it has totally stuck open.

If that doesn't give you a CEL, IDK what to tell you.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:13 am

Ok I'll try that tonight.

Would it be worth carrying out a compression test to try and diagnose a valve defect?

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:39 pm

It isn't going to hurt. All the info you can get will eventually pay off.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:26 pm

Well i did a compression test.

when i pulled the spark plugs out 1 2 and 4 were black, wet and a little sooty.
number 3 was perfectly clean and new

(bare in mind i changed them yesterday and the engine has run for like 30 seconds)

Compression test results:

Haynes Manual Specifies 175-225 PSI

Cylinder 1 - 190 PSI - rose steady
Clyinder 2 - 185 PSI - rose steady
Cylinder 3 - 0 PSI - needle never moved
Cylinder 4 - 195 PSI - rose steady

Uh-Oh .... What Now?!

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:54 pm

Pull rocker cover. Take a good look at #3 intake rocker. My guess is the intake valves are not opening. (if #3 plug was dry, and clean, instead of wet and clean)

A bad gasket at #3 intake runner would cause a fuel issue, but not a compression issue. I don't see it getting pulled completely out, and stuck in the valves with the IM bolted on.

Or the exhaust is not opening, and the fuel charge is getting blown back out the intake valves.

Or the worst case, the connecting rod has snapped, and #3 piston is just sitting there in the bore.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:06 pm

occasional demons wrote:Pull rocker cover. Take a good look at #3 intake rocker. My guess is the intake valves are not opening. (if #3 plug was dry, and clean, instead of wet and clean)

Ooops, my bad ... update on that description. #3 plug was clean except a tiny bit of black dirt on the plug, oh and its wet and stinks of gas

occasional demons wrote:Or the worst case, the connecting rod has snapped, and #3 piston is just sitting there in the bore.

i dont like the sound of that

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:53 pm

Ok so i took the rocker cover off.

Nothing obvious at first ...

All of the valve springs look like this

Except ....

Cylinder 3 LHS Intake Valve Spring which looks like this ...

I have 3 questions.

1) would this totally explain my problem?

2) how did this happen, normal wear or just an indication of a larger problem?

2) can this be fixed without removing the head?

NEON PARABOLA · Post by **NEON PARABOLA** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:23 pm

Hey boss, I'm seeing alot of aluminum in your oil....

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:24 pm

Wow.

It may be able to be fixed without removing the head, If the piston has not beat the crap out of the valve. But the catch 22 is you have to get the valve shut, to hold compressed air to put the keepers on/take them off, (if it is going to be an issue).

Not sure what caused that, unless the lash adjuster failed and pumped totally up, causing the spring coils to bind. I would pull the head if it were me. Prolly going to have to be done in the end any ways. You may need a couple new valves, and a rocker assy. Obviously, a couple springs.

Possibly new valve guides. The valve may have seized in the guide too.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:48 pm

NEON PARABOLA wrote:Hey boss, I'm seeing alot of aluminum in your oil....

i never noticed that ... good point ... where that comes from?

occasional demons wrote: It may be able to be fixed without removing the head, If the piston has not beat the crap out of the valve. But the catch 22 is you have to get the valve shut, to hold compressed air to put the keepers on/take them off, (if it is going to be an issue).

fair point, in that case i best start working on getting the head off for refurbishment

occasional demons wrote: You may need a couple new valves, and a rocker assy. Obviously, a couple springs. Possibly new valve guides. The valve may have seized in the guide too.

how come i'd need a new rocker?

Ok so help me if you will make a shopping list

(id rather spend a few bucks extra now and change what makes sense and common to break than have to do it all again a few months down the line)

* = Already Own New Part Or On Order

8x inlet valves
8x exhaust vales
16x valve springs
*Head Gasket
*Head Bolts
Cam Seal
*Timing Belt
*Alternator Belt
*Serp Belt
*Rocker Cover Gasket
Spark Plug Tubes
*Spark Plug Tube Seals
*10x Grommets for them cover bolts
*PCV Valve
*Cam Position Sensor

Is there any difference between the R/T head and a standard Head and am i right in assuming mine will be the 3-groove valves?

i guess new valves always need to be lapped in too?

What about buying all the little bits that hold the valves and springs together?
I know about the valve and spring and rocker but what are the parts numbered 7 9 and 10 in the below picture?

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:24 pm

7 is a spring seat, it goes against the head on the bottom. You shouldn't need that.
8 is the spring
9 is the spring retainer
10 is the keepers, or locks depending on what you want to call them.

If you order new R/T springs, the retainers will come with. (Dealer)

Depending on how bad things got thrashed, you may want to order new keepers.

Everything is pretty much the same between the standard head and the Magnum, except the cam and springs.

The springs get installed with the closer coils to the bottom.

You may need new rocker(s), because the lash adjuster is part of the rocker. I'd bet the end of the lash adjuster is FUBAR'ed from slapping back and forth.

Might want to inspect the cam lobes there too.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:22 am

occasional demons wrote:7 is a spring seat, it goes against the head on the bottom. You shouldn't need that.
8 is the spring
9 is the spring retainer
10 is the keepers, or locks depending on what you want to call them.

If you order new R/T springs, the retainers will come with. (Dealer)

awesome, thats for that info, i found the P/N for thae spring and retainer already

occasional demons wrote: Everything is pretty much the same between the standard head and the Magnum, except the cam and springs.

so the valves themselves are the same? i found "SEALED POWER" ones on rock auto, would they be any good or would you recommend sticking to OEM ones?

occasional demons wrote:You may need new rocker(s), because the lash adjuster is part of the rocker. I'd bet the end of the lash adjuster is FUBAR'ed from slapping back and forth.

Might want to inspect the cam lobes there too.

Noted

Post by **occasional demons** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:17 am

Sealed Power should be fine. Just be sure they are the triple groove, unless you are buying new locks, and retainers to match. The retainers are somehow different between the single and triple groove valves/locks. Single groove valves do tend to be less spendy for some reason.

But personally, I like to keep everything consistent...

I would also replace all the springs, if you weren't already considering that.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:43 am

Yep, agreed I'd like to keep everything the same and them valves are 3 grooved.

It says "Vin code F" standard

But there is also an oversized version, any advantage of this???

I was planning on replacing all valves and springs anyway, at only $6 a piece for sping and retainer it'd be silly not to!

I'm guessing there's gonna be a fair amount of carbon in there, any advice on how to remove this without scratching with a Brillo pad?

Post by **occasional demons** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:48 am

Over sized valves may give it a tad more power, If the cost isn't that much more, and you are replacing them all anyways... You will need the seats enlarged, but a valve grind would be recommended since you have the head off.

IDK what kind of soap based cleaners you have there, but something like Simple Green will dissolve the carbon if you let it soak in a pail long enough. It will at least soften it up so you can remove it easier.

If you have the seats ground, the machine shop may clean it up for you regardless. Should prolly have a clean up pass on the gasket surface too.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:28 am

When you say valve grind ... Do you mean lapping the new valves to the head?