Car Dead ... Now It's Alive Again !!!

Post by **occasional demons** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:37 am

No. I mean refacing the valves, and the seats with a cutter/grinding stone. Of course with new valves, that half would not be needed.

A valve job usually consist of the above, plus checking/replacing th guides as needed.

With OS valves, the seats need cut larger to match the valve, and to get it at the proper seat depth.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:10 am

Damn I never heard of that before.

Usually, I thought, you just put the new valve in place then use grinding paste and rub them together with a plunger to get a nice seal and repeat for the others?!

Post by **occasional demons** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:36 pm

Lapping the valves in, is generally done after they are refaced. You don't want to have to lap a groove into them to get them to conform to the used/worn seats. It is mainly to get a nice seal.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:51 pm

I Apologise but i dont quite understand still.

are you saying that only Oversized valves need to be ground in or will regular valves need to be ground too, or just lapped?

Post by **occasional demons** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:32 pm

Depending on how the seats look, the new valves may only need lapped a bit.

OS valves would need the seats cut larger. Then the new valves lapped to the freshly cut seats.

A complete valve job is refacing both valves and seats, to freshen everything up.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:06 pm

ok, i understand now

i think ill just be sticking to regular valves.

how can i be sure if the valves are single or triple grooved? a few different parts websites telling me different information!

Post by **occasional demons** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:09 pm

nerox wrote:ok, i understand now

how can i be sure if the valves are single or triple grooved?

The ones you have, or what you would be purchasing?

Yours should be triple, as it would be easy to tell.

The place you are getting them from should specify which ones they are.

Basically most '01 and up are triple groove. I believe all Magnum engines were triple regardless.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:51 am

Yeah i did mean the ones on my car, i saw the ones im looking at buying are 3 groove, just wanted to check mine are.

I got the rockers off today and took some photos, the Lash adjusters look ok to me, but then i don't really know how they are supposed to look ...

also the cam lobes and rollers look fine too (in my opinion)

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:17 am

Ok here's the latest situation,

I just managed to get hold of a BRAND NEW R/T head in the uk for <$200 (I know I don't need one I just couldn't help buying it)

Now seeing as I've already got new valves to put in and I wanna do everything real nice and new for max reliability I'm prolly gonna build up the new head with all the new parts and put it in.
Then scrap or sell bits from the old one.

Now quick question ...

Is it worth upgrading to a Crane cam while I've got everything apart?

And also I cannot get hold of the valve springs so I'm wondering about the crane ones on modern, but they don't say if they are for a Magnum?

Also for them crane springs, a set is $140 for the springs but with the retainer they're $200 more! Can the retainers be bought separately for under $200 a set?

Post by **occasional demons** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:57 am

You can re use your current retainers. As long as you are staying with the triple lock valves. The Crane retainers are for single lock valves from what I have read.

The crane springs will work fine. They are a higher spring rate, so yeah, they will work for the Magnum.

If a little less fuel economy is not a concern yeah, you could upgrade the cam. The 12 isn't going to be a lot different than the '01 Magnum cam tho. You would need something that isn't going to give you headaches for fuel control at idle also. The 14 or similar grind will mess with the o2 sensor, due to the intake/exhaust overlap.

A comp cams 400 will be a step up from the R/T cam, and will not require add on fuel management. I'm not sure on the new Crane grinds what works with stock and what doesn't.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:13 am

Ok so in conclusion to that:

Get the crane springs, they work for a mag head.
Re-use the retainers or if gonna be picky get new OEM ones for the 3-groove valves.

For the cam get a comp400 or stick with stock.

Thanks!

Post by **occasional demons** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:46 am

If you are going to be picky about the retainers, may as well see if the dealer can get you the Magnum springs. They come with new retainers. About ~$6 each.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:00 am

Ah yeah I've tried to get those but all I get told is

"part is on back order with no estimated date given"

That's the only reason I'm looking at the crane springs.

Do you know the PN for the retainers I should get?
I think its 4648682AB ¿

also im wondering about p&p'ing the head ¿

Post by **occasional demons** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:41 am

nerox wrote:Ah yeah I've tried to get those but all I get told is

"part is on back order with no estimated date given"

That's the only reason I'm looking at the crane springs.

Do you know the PN for the retainers I should get?
I think its 4648682AB ¿

also im wondering about p&p'ing the head ¿

4648682AB would be correct. 16 required.

Just in case:
4777050AC would be the locks. 32 required.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:51 am

Thanks for that,

I've already got the locks from my dealer here.

Just ordered the crane springs from modern and will get them retainers from the dealer (if not discontinued)

I found that comp 400 for $300 but with shipping and taxes gonna cost me more like $450 ... Is it worth it I wonder ...

Depends how much I can expect to get from selling my mag cam?

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:45 am

I ordered the spring retainers from dealer.

And took the plunge and bought the Comp400 Cam

I hope all these parts are compatible

?

Post by **occasional demons** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:33 pm

Yep. The 400 (and 200) cam is actually designed to work with oem springs. They made the ramps more spring friendly so the springs don't get as much shock from sudden opening/closing of the valves.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:41 pm

Awesome!

What about the crane springs I've ordered from modern?

Post by **occasional demons** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:23 pm

Yep, the 400 should be cake work for them.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:26 pm

sweet.

i hope im gonna get a bit of gain from this (aside a practically new car) coz this has cost me a fortune!

$\:D/$

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:18 pm

New head arrived today

The guy who installed the spark plug tubes must have got a bit excited with his loctite dipenser

Best get all that cleaned off

New valves

Question ...

when lapping the valves in, how do i know when its lapped enough, engineers blue?

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:36 pm

Being new you just want a nice consistent mark where the seat and valve contact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IieG6Vw6 ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhXsH12Rg6s

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:32 pm

Update.

I've read loads online but cant really fine a definate answer on when they are lapped sufficiently.

I've lapped one in by hand (took forever) and took some closeups so im hoping someone can tell me yay or nay.

untouched valve, straight out the packet.

valve after some lapping, notice the line in the middle. i though it needed lapping until that entire face was the same, but looking at the valve seating on the head, its only as big as that line anyways ... so maybe thats all that required??

Valve seatings before and after

Thats only the first coarse grind by the way, fine to be done when im sure the coarse is done right

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:12 pm

Maybe a little lighter on the coarse grind, if not just skipping it and going to the finer stuff. Being new, and not resurfaced, I don't think you need to be as aggressive.

I have heard the old (I mean old) school guys talk about using tooth paste for the final lap.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:03 pm

Toothpaste, damn i might have to try that, for like $0.30 a tube its not a big deal if it doesn't work.

today managed to managed to get some work done and get the head off

the pistons look pretty good IMO and the bores have no damage whatsoever!

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:09 pm

I'm wondering how much decking the head is considered safe before adjustable cam gear is required?

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:19 pm

Well, it's not that it's required at any specific point. It's that the farther off it is, the more it will bias power away from the RPMs you drive around casually on. For a stock cam, this isn't a big deal, but for a nasty high lift cam, it could make it troublesome to even idle.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:25 pm

damn, i think i'll leave it alone then

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:08 pm

Right,

So here's the latest.

New valve seals installed
New Valves lapped and installed
Crane springs installed with the new cups and locks
Comp400 Cam installed with new Seal & CPS

i fitted the rocker arms as directed in the haynes manual and torqued the bolts to the specified 29NM. everything looked good ...

... but i noticed it was absolutely impossible to turn the cam by hand afterwards (even with the camgear fitted) it was so stiff it wouldn't move, that dosen't seem right to me, i must be able to move it a little bit to set the timing correctly, or will that require the nut to be intalled and moved with a large wrench?

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:47 pm

nerox wrote: ... but i noticed it was absolutely impossible to turn the cam by hand afterwards (even with the camgear fitted) it was so stiff it wouldn't move, that dosen't seem right to me, i must be able to move it a little bit to set the timing correctly, or will that require the nut to be intalled and moved with a large wrench?

I've never been able to move the valvegear by hand, once everything is torqued down.
Sounds normal to me !

Now, if you apply a wrench and are unable to move the valvetrain, then I'd say there are issues.

- Nick