a few more Magnum questions

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Gnuserup
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a few more Magnum questions

Post by Gnuserup » Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:10 pm

After I read a lot here I have some more questions left -

if I plan to install on my 2000 mtx LE some Magnum parts, would the PCM of a RT work with the non-RT engine (if all kept stock, except the IMF) ?

Is the camshaft (e.g.timing) different in any way, or will just the valves and springs be ?

Does anyone know if and how the emissions will be different, if I install the Magnum intake (and for the first step - just the IMF) and maybe for the second step the PCM (if you say that will work as described above) as well ? Would be good to know for the next inspection :lol:

What really happens if the Magnum IMF is installed, but the butterflies might not be working ?

Does the exhaust pipe has a different diameter, esp. the cat and is it possible to install the Magnum EMF onto the non-RT-head anyway ? Would such a constellation cause disadvantages, nothing important or a little gain ?

Which module (cheap but reliable and known as working well) would you recommend to get the butterflies working if no RT PCM will be used ?

Part/ Typenumber of the RT trany ? (to sort the non-RT-tranys out)
What at least might the preference of that trany be ?
(and - btw - I read I had to swap half the housing for my cableclutch :lol: if I could get hands on a RT trany once)

Thanks in advance and sorry, if I maybe missed to find something I´m now asking for.
a neon - what else ?

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Re: a few more Magnum questions

Post by Canada » Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:32 pm

Gnuserup wrote:After I read a lot here I have some more questions left -

if I plan to install on my 2000 mtx LE some Magnum parts, would the PCM of a RT work with the non-RT engine (if all kept stock, except the IMF) ? YES, BUT ONLY IF YOUR CAR IS A GRAY KEY SKIM CAR AS THE PCM QOULD NEED TO SEE THE SKIM MODULE TO RUN

Is the camshaft (e.g.timing) different in any way, or will just the valves and springs be ? R/T OR MAGNUM CAM IS DIFFERENT FROM STANDARD STOCK SOHC CAM, AS ARE SPRINGS AND RETAINERS

Does anyone know if and how the emissions will be different, if I install the Magnum intake (and for the first step - just the IMF) and maybe for the second step the PCM (if you say that will work as described above) as well ? Would be good to know for the next inspection :lol: SHOULD HAVE NO ISSUES PASSING EMISSIONS AS REGULAR R/T MODELS HAVE NO ISSUES PASSING EMISSIONS

What really happens if the Magnum IMF is installed, but the butterflies might not be working ? THEN IT WON'T WORK AS AN ACTIVE MANIFOLD AND WILL OPERATE SIMILAR TO YOUR STANDARD INTAKE MANIFOLD ONLY BE HEAVIER

Does the exhaust pipe has a different diameter, esp. the cat and is it possible to install the Magnum EMF onto the non-RT-head anyway ? Would such a constellation cause disadvantages, nothing important or a little gain ? MAGNUM EXHAUST MANIFOLD BOLTS RIGHT UP TO SOHC HEAD PERFECT, MIDPIPE IS SAME SIZE BUT DOESN'T NECK DOWN TO 2.00" BEFORE THE REAR MUFFLER PIPE

Which module (cheap but reliable and known as working well) would you recommend to get the butterflies working if no RT PCM will be used ? USING ANY OLD RPM SWITCH AND WINDOW SWITCH AS DESCRIBED IN THE MANY WRITE UPS WILL BE FINE, QUALITY IS ALL ABOUT THE SAME

Part/ Typenumber of the RT trany ? (to sort the non-RT-tranys out)
What at least might the preference of that trany be ?
(and - btw - I read I had to swap half the housing for my cableclutch :lol: if I could get hands on a RT trany once) LOOK ON NEONS.ORG FOR THE TRANSMISSION REFERENCE GUIDE TO GIVE YOU AN IDEA AND YES, YOU WILL HAVE TO SWAP THE BELL HOUSING TO A CABLE BELL HOUSING TO WORK WITH YOUR SETUP

Thanks in advance and sorry, if I maybe missed to find something I´m now asking for.

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Post by occasional demons » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:03 pm

The valve timing is a little different to be more specific, But the cam timing marks will line up exactly the same as the regular cam. (It is the same sprocket) The cam is only slightly more aggressive, there is nothing you really need to do differently from a standard cam, as far as installation.

Magnum springs are preferred, as the coils are wound differently. They are made so there is less mass reciprocating at the valve spring retainer end. (The tighter/closer coils go down)

Almost all R/T PCM's are SKIM. Possibly the ACR's are not, but finding R/T pcm's can be hard enough, and ACR's are really rare.

Also for your 2000, you can only use the '01 and '02 PCM, in addition to the SKIM issue, your IAC will need to be re wired as the 2000 is a stepper motor 4 wire design, and the '01 up are linear pwm solenoids, that only use two wires. The drivers in the PCM's are totally different.

To solve the SKIM issue, you would need the key(s), SKIM module, antenna, PCM, from the donor car. If you only have the PCM, you are kinda out of luck. Unless you get incredibly lucky like me. I have no idea why my SKIM PCM is working in my non skim car.
Bill
Probably shouldn't listen to anything your penis says, that guy's a dick.
Patience, of course, is a very powerful weapon, but sometimes I start to regret that it is not a firearm.
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Post by Gnuserup » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:46 pm

ok - fine and thanks so far.

I hopefully will get some parts soon. It seems I should watch out for the throttlebody as well just in case I´ll find a RT PCM.
Unfortunatelly I have about 3 TBs laying around, all before 01 :x

Skim shouldn´t be a problem. I think all neons over here should have been delivered with SKIM, so is my 2000.
Do you think, the skim (my key) will directly work with just another (skim-awaiting) PCM, e.g. any RT PCM ? Or is there maybe need to get programmed something ?

If I understood right, the butterflies are working within a specific RPM-Range, so I had either to switch them on and off manually or get me some modules. Actually I´m searchig at MSD for what they offer.
But it seems, to get a RT-PCM might be the best choice for me, even if it will work with my non RT head and timings.

Near future plans are not to work on the head itself, so it´s good to know that I might be fine to get some extra BHP and especially (and of more interest) some new experiences by installing the Magnum intake first and wire it up, for sure with a switch or something first.

Next steps will be to get it controlled right automatically, maybe with the RT PCM, then the exhaust will be taken on my list.
Maybe the head will follow if I find one once. And sure - a trany should be a cool thing as well. No need to but good for trying to get that working on my own.

Might it be possible to get the standard head RT-ish by changing the valves, springs and cam or is that useless ? Far from that I read that the exhaust ports are different. Anyone solved that easily ?
a neon - what else ?

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Post by Jenni » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:47 am

save time and money and buy an SRT :lol:

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Post by occasional demons » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:44 am

You would need the engine bay harness to actuate the MTV via the R/T pcm. The regular harness is not wired for it. Or you can get the "cable shoes" from another PCM/PDC connector(s) and wire the needed changes into your existing harness/PDC.

No your SKIM key will not work with a different PCM, Unless you take the complete car to a dealer and have them flash the R/T pcm to your VIN.

Unless you are really good at porting, your regular head will not match the exhaust port flow of the R/T head. It will be easier to get an R/T head.
Bill
Probably shouldn't listen to anything your penis says, that guy's a dick.
Patience, of course, is a very powerful weapon, but sometimes I start to regret that it is not a firearm.
Too much time spent here is a sign of a bad case of Ownaneonvirus.

2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap

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Post by sidepipe87 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:55 am

occasional demons wrote: To solve the SKIM issue, you would need the key(s), SKIM module, antenna, PCM, from the donor car. If you only have the PCM, you are kinda out of luck. Unless you get incredibly lucky like me. I have no idea why my SKIM PCM is working in my non skim car.
Or you can just get your vin flashed to the r/t pcm and keep your skim and keys :lol:

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Post by RobsProjectSOHC » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:40 am

I wished i saved for srt...but!!!! i do love my DD 2.0 with the upgrades of course. Doing a RT PCM swap would be little bit more money spending in my opinion than the rpm switch and a tach adapter to work with sock ecu. If you plan on doing a tune, i feel like a pcm swap would just be an extra step.

I run a crane 12 with magnum intake manifold (and more)...and i couldnt be happier with the passing power i need. ALSO!, the real reason we drive these 2."slow" is for the cheap gas/insurance.
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Post by occasional demons » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:53 am

sidepipe87 wrote:
occasional demons wrote: To solve the SKIM issue, you would need the key(s), SKIM module, antenna, PCM, from the donor car. If you only have the PCM, you are kinda out of luck. Unless you get incredibly lucky like me. I have no idea why my SKIM PCM is working in my non skim car.
Or you can just get your vin flashed to the r/t pcm and keep your skim and keys :lol:
Yeah that was before I knew if he had SKIM or not. I basically changed that in the post above yours. :D
Bill
Probably shouldn't listen to anything your penis says, that guy's a dick.
Patience, of course, is a very powerful weapon, but sometimes I start to regret that it is not a firearm.
Too much time spent here is a sign of a bad case of Ownaneonvirus.

2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap

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Post by sidepipe87 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:28 pm

occasional demons wrote:
sidepipe87 wrote:
occasional demons wrote: To solve the SKIM issue, you would need the key(s), SKIM module, antenna, PCM, from the donor car. If you only have the PCM, you are kinda out of luck. Unless you get incredibly lucky like me. I have no idea why my SKIM PCM is working in my non skim car.
Or you can just get your vin flashed to the r/t pcm and keep your skim and keys :lol:
Yeah that was before I knew if he had SKIM or not. I basically changed that in the post above yours. :D
Dammit, Bill! I didn't see that post

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Post by Gnuserup » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:00 pm

ok - then it should be the biggest problem to get a RT PCM. Cableshoes I do have enough I believe :lol:

The modules I found should work well for sure, but unfortunatelly they seem not to be very common here and if I have to pay more than 100$ + shipping I like to get a RT PCM more.
+ it´s more original :)

Other question for that - I believe the PCMs I could reach may come from neons with side-airbags. Do you think I will get errorcodes if I install it on my non-side-airbag LE ?

@Jenni - if I had enough money to get a SRT, I would already ow a RT :lol:
a neon - what else ?

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Post by occasional demons » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:23 pm

Shouldn't get error codes for the air bags, that would be in the air bag module, not the PCM.

One option you may consider is having a 2000 PCM reprogrammed and shipped to you, but again, you are looking at way more than it would be worth, all said and done.

viewtopic.php?t=65267
Bill
Probably shouldn't listen to anything your penis says, that guy's a dick.
Patience, of course, is a very powerful weapon, but sometimes I start to regret that it is not a firearm.
Too much time spent here is a sign of a bad case of Ownaneonvirus.

2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap

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Post by Gnuserup » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:44 pm

Really interesting - haven´t recognized that thread yet.

Did some searching for a 2001 manual but wasn´t lucky in the web (with a fast search :roll: ), but already had something on my harddisk. Damn - I think I urgently have to check out, what all I have collected over the years now.

So fortunatelly I found a Pinout for the 01 RT PCM and it says Pin39 (on C1) is K200 20br/wt - the Manifold Tuning Valve Relay Control.

(btw - on NGCs it´s Pin 16 on C2 (orange) K200 20vt/or)

So - reprogramming PCMs might be nice, but would Pin 39 be wired up on a non-RT-PCM ?
Nobody knows :shock:
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Post by sidepipe87 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:47 pm

Gnuserup wrote:ok - then it should be the biggest problem to get a RT PCM.
Call me an asshole then, but I just bought TWO '03 R/T PCMs in the past week :lol: That being said, I scoured the internet to find them it wasn't an easy task. And I imagine shipping to Germany will kill it for you :sad:

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Post by occasional demons » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:05 am

An NGC PCM would be even more work, as there are more differences than an SBEC R/T pcm. An engine swap would also be needed. :lol:


*In his '00...
Bill
Probably shouldn't listen to anything your penis says, that guy's a dick.
Patience, of course, is a very powerful weapon, but sometimes I start to regret that it is not a firearm.
Too much time spent here is a sign of a bad case of Ownaneonvirus.

2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap

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Post by Gnuserup » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:43 pm

sidepipe87 wrote:Call me an asshole then, but I just bought TWO '03 R/T PCMs in the past week :lol: That being said, I scoured the internet to find them it wasn't an easy task. And I imagine shipping to Germany will kill it for you :sad:
aaargh - I´m jealous

but otherwise I have been able to find all what I liked to until now, so I will again :D Time will tell and for this kind of things I have no hurry.

Latest arrival were two stock taillights. Really cheap I think but shipping - damn f......s.... .
So shipping a PCM want kill me - my wife will :lol:

But don´t want to swap the engine (and therefor the harness) right now. It´s would be fine to get a 01 pre NGC PCM sometimes.

UK is my friend as here in germany neither SRT nor RT have been sold ever. Very latest arrival had been today from UK - Magnum manifolds, skirts and a manual

viewtopic.php?p=978334#978334

So I will go on from here and search for the PCM.

btw - where is the 1st O2 sensor located on the RTs ?
a neon - what else ?

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Post by occasional demons » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:53 pm

Gnuserup wrote:btw - where is the 1st O2 sensor located on the RTs ?
It is in the downpipe/catalytic converter, right after the header to pipe flange. Most just have an o2 bung welded into the header collector, if using the stock catalyst.

Edit: Luckily, mine was already done when I got it.

Image

Image
Bill
Probably shouldn't listen to anything your penis says, that guy's a dick.
Patience, of course, is a very powerful weapon, but sometimes I start to regret that it is not a firearm.
Too much time spent here is a sign of a bad case of Ownaneonvirus.

2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap

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Post by Gnuserup » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:04 pm

ok - so far so good.

I´m actually waiting for some more RT Parts which hopefully arrive soon :D
Meanwhile I think about the RT T350 trany. Don´t want to open a (another) new thread for this, so I ask my question here...
I read a lot about this, esp. on neons.org. Found the chart and the ft/lbs vs. ft/lbs/rpm thread a.s.o.
But at least it´s not that clear to me :roll:

If I´m right, the 3.94 trany will give better performance but worse mpg ?
What might the usual effect of that swap to my regular 2.0 be ? Better acceleration, higher top speed ?

I probably will get a 04668776AD soon which has all gears with the same ratio as my installed 04668604AD, except the different final drive. If I will, I know I have to do the bellhouse swap. Anyway. Any advises for things I should care for that or anything else, once I have the trany laying around outside ?

Thanks a lot.
a neon - what else ?

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Post by occasional demons » Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:57 pm

OK, if you do a fair amount of freeway driving, vs rural, the R/T MTX might not be the better choice.

But there is another option, that will get you the 3.94 F.D. and the basically the same fifth gear overall ratio as the 3.55/.81 MTX. Click the PT tab on the chart. for '02 to '06, IIRC. There you will find the non turbo PT MTX. 3.94/.74 fifth. It is still going to require a bell housing swap for '00 tho.

If you can get one of those, you will have the peppier 1st though 4th gears, and good highway fuel economy.
Bill
Probably shouldn't listen to anything your penis says, that guy's a dick.
Patience, of course, is a very powerful weapon, but sometimes I start to regret that it is not a firearm.
Too much time spent here is a sign of a bad case of Ownaneonvirus.

2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap

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