Installing a header on a 2000 - *Interesting* bit of info!!

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NickKo
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Installing a header on a 2000 - *Interesting* bit of info!!

Post by NickKo » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:44 pm

Hello, Folks,
I am in the process of replacing (and upgrading :) ) the exhaust system on a 2000 Neon.

While removing the factory exhaust manifold over the weekend, I found something rather astonishing.




Here is a 'tech photo' of the flex pipe / head pipe that attaches the catalytic converter to the factory exhaust manifold.
( as seen from the 'catalytic converter side'.)

Image
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5544/9387 ... 6fcb_c.jpg

This picture probably doesn't do justice to show just how restrictive this is.


Looking at this picture, you'll see part of the inner 'sleeve' which serves as part of the flex joint for the exhaust.
I noticed that it looks kind of.... 'narrow'. :|

How 'narrow' is it ??
Only 1 13/16th inches !! :o ( Only slightly bigger than 1 3/4ths of an inch..... Less than 2 in. across. )



This is on a 2000 Neon.
I understand that there were 3 or 4 different exhaust systems available for the early 2nd gens, so they may not all have been this restrictive.

Needless to say, this is a good place to do an 'upgrade' and free up some HP and torque. Do it !!


- Nick
Last edited by NickKo on Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

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Midnight_Rider
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Post by Midnight_Rider » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:16 am

Good grief, how did the poor car exhale? :shock: Wow.
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occasional demons
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Post by occasional demons » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:36 am

Lol, I've been telling that to folks for some time now, the 2gn flex joint is the worst part, I've just never posted pics.

I guess that is one advantage to the "doughnut" style the 1gn uses.

I'd bet you could get a little gain by having a universal flex joint welded in it's place. All 2gn flex joints seem to be the same size externally, so I don't see how they could have made them much lager internally.

The Mangnaflow high flow direct replacement cat isn't any better if not worse than the oem cat. At least the oem part has a bit of a smoother transition, as where the Magnaflow is like hitting a small hole with a wall surrounding it.

Note the gasket ID vs the inlet. That is what the flow is hitting. Brilliant "high flow" design....
Image

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Bill
dblsg wrote:ya'll a bunch of post whores
Seriously people, this is 2019 not 1920.
Too much time spent here is a sign of a bad case of Ownaneonvirus.

2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
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jrumann59
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Post by jrumann59 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:27 am

Not to insult the OP, but Neons have always had restrictive exhausts. Not JDM restrictive but restrictive none the less. Heall with all my bolt ons I made good power but when I added the Fast Fab Header and 2.5" exhaust on my 1st gen I can actually climb a hill in 5th and pick up speed.
bone-yard-racing wrote:
Remind him of two things for the mustang:
Slow in=Fast out
Fast in=Ambulance out
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timk225
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Post by timk225 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:36 am

When I put a Pacesetter header and 2-1/2" Magnaflow cat on my 5 SXT ATX, I took off the stock exhaust manifold and cat, and I noticed that the cat inlet didn't have that restriction, it was pretty straight through. I didn't measure it but it was a good 2 inches.

On the dragstrip, going from totally stock with a new DOHC twin outlet muffler to adding a K&N filter, removing the intake resonator, and adding the Pacesetter plus Magnaflow gained me a whole 3 horsepower. I was pissed!

However I have a ported & polished Magnum head and Crane 12 cam w/ Crane valvesprings about to go on. I want at least 20 WHP from this upgrade!!!!!

Crane 12 advertises 12-14 hp gain.
Magnum head is a gain.
Ported and polished is a gain.

All these gains better equal AT LEAST 20 WHP!!!!

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Post by occasional demons » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:41 pm

timk225 wrote: Crane 12 advertises 12-14 hp gain.
Magnum head is a gain.
Ported and polished is a gain.

All these gains better equal AT LEAST 20 WHP!!!!

Good luck with that. A 12 isn't much bigger than an '01 Magnum cam. You might see 8 to 10 WHP out of all that. And I'm being damn optimistic. :lol:
Bill
dblsg wrote:ya'll a bunch of post whores
Seriously people, this is 2019 not 1920.
Too much time spent here is a sign of a bad case of Ownaneonvirus.

2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
Help support 2GN!

NickKo
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Post by NickKo » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:47 pm

jrumann59 wrote:Not to insult the OP, but Neons have always had restrictive exhausts. Not JDM restrictive but restrictive none the less.
Understood, and I (mostly) agree.

The 1st gen Neons actually were not that bad, 'from the factory' - Compared to other economy cars.
No other cars in the Neon's class, had a 2 1/4in. exhaust.

I had decent gains in power by upgrading to a header "by itself" on my 1995 ATX SOHC .... And that was with the factory cat and exhaust.



However - On this early 2nd gen - Installing a header on this car (without fixing the restriction at the headpipe), would result in very little, if any, gain.
I bet a decent gain could be made even with the factory exhaust manifold, just by removing this restriction !!


- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

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jrumann59
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Post by jrumann59 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:19 pm

NickKo wrote:
jrumann59 wrote:Not to insult the OP, but Neons have always had restrictive exhausts. Not JDM restrictive but restrictive none the less.
Understood, and I (mostly) agree.

The 1st gen Neons actually were not that bad, 'from the factory' - Compared to other economy cars.
No other cars in the Neon's class, had a 2 1/4in. exhaust.

I had decent gains in power by upgrading to a header "by itself" on my 1995 ATX SOHC .... And that was with the factory cat and exhaust.



However - On this early 2nd gen - Installing a header on this car (without fixing the restriction at the headpipe), would result in very little, if any, gain.
I bet a decent gain could be made even with the factory exhaust manifold, just by removing this restriction !!


- Nick
The restrictive part of the neon exhaust has always been the header. For some reason I want to say 1-1/2" primaries that were full of casting and to a mostly 2 inch collector.
bone-yard-racing wrote:
Remind him of two things for the mustang:
Slow in=Fast out
Fast in=Ambulance out
ImageImage

timk225
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Post by timk225 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:56 pm

Crane 12 advertises 12-14 hp gain.
Magnum head is a gain.
Ported and polished is a gain.

All these gains better equal AT LEAST 20 WHP!!!!



Good luck with that. A 12 isn't much bigger than an '01 Magnum cam. You might see 8 to 10 WHP out of all that. And I'm being damn optimistic. Laughing
No way. No.... HWAY!!!!! You can't be serious.

I am talking about going from a stock 5 SXT ATX cylinder head and cam to a Stage 1 ported and polished MAGNUM head with the Crane 12 and Crane springs.

A Magnum head alone is a proven gain. Ported and polished is a gain. And a mild cam certainly has to be something of a gain.

And you are telling me not to expect more than 8-10 WHP out of ALL THIS?!?!?!?!?!

True, the ATX PCM does limit me to 6300 rpm via its shift points, but come on now!



However, if this is true, I'll have a fully rebuilt and ready to go with a new cam and springs Magnum head in the for sale section soon, even with a new head gasket kit from Modern Performance. Figure $750 all in. Lotsa photos!

Occasional -- you have a PM.
Last edited by timk225 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by mopar2 » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:59 am

Nope a Crane 12 won't gain you much. Try a Comp 400 but being a ATX car you won't really gain much.
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Post by timk225 » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:12 pm

After much thought and thinking, and going over all the what ifs, whys, and wherefores, I think I may put the whole deal up for sale. Freshly ported & polished Magnum R/T head, 0.004" skim cut on deck, 3 angle valve job, all clean and ready to assemble.

Head gasket kit from Modern Performance, unopened.

Crane 12 cam and valve springs, all new, never run.

I'm a little annoyed that the current WEAKSAUCE engine can barely stay with a new Prius, but I'd be SEVERELY JACKED OFF if I installed all these parts and still ran 17's!

I'll make a new post with all the porting photos and parts photos. I'm thinking $750 + shipping, which is practically GIVING it away considering the costs of parts acquisiton, port work, machine shop work, etc.

If you are within driving distance of Pittsburgh, PA, come and get it and save shipping costs. Well, it becomes gas money, but whatever.

If someone is building a MTX car with nitrous, turbo, 13:1 compression or whatever, you want this stuff. You need this stuff.
Last edited by timk225 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jrumann59
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Post by jrumann59 » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:21 pm

Crane 12s have always been mild cams. The joys of owning an ATX you lose so much through the drivetrain. Stock Neon SXT/ES ATX dyno numbers 94 hp to the wheels. Net loss of 38 HP at the wheels
bone-yard-racing wrote:
Remind him of two things for the mustang:
Slow in=Fast out
Fast in=Ambulance out
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Post by Arro » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:07 pm

All the more reason why I should get off my ass and do my MTX swap and ditch the slushbox lol
Drive it like you stole it, and work on it like you married it.
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NickKo
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Post by NickKo » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:40 pm

occasional demons wrote:
The Mangnaflow high flow direct replacement cat isn't any better if not worse than the oem cat. At least the oem part has a bit of a smoother transition, as where the Magnaflow is like hitting a small hole with a wall surrounding it.

Note the gasket ID vs the inlet. That is what the flow is hitting. Brilliant "high flow" design....
Image
I am glad to report, that the PT Cruiser cat converter assembly, is MUCH IMPROVED in this regard. :D ( Which is what I plan on using )

Hell, it's almost TOO damn big. :lol: I will post pics and details later, and let everyone know how it goes. :D


- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009

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Post by kc2005ptgt » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:36 am

Yeah, after all the bolt ons and engine mods I did (cam, port/polish, rebuild bottom end and pistons) the biggest boost to my power was the FastFabs LTH (3" dump) and catless with 2.5" exhaust. It was ridiculous.
SOLD 5/13- 2005 Chrysler PT Cruiser GT Convertible | 2.4L Turbo HO | Bright Silver Metallic
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Post by occasional demons » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:40 pm

This,

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=396422

kind of made me think of this thread.

It puts a little perspective on it... :lol:
Bill
dblsg wrote:ya'll a bunch of post whores
Seriously people, this is 2019 not 1920.
Too much time spent here is a sign of a bad case of Ownaneonvirus.

2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
Help support 2GN!

NickKo
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Posts: 2248
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Post by NickKo » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:32 am

kc2005ptgt wrote:Yeah, after all the bolt ons and engine mods I did (cam, port/polish, rebuild bottom end and pistons) the biggest boost to my power was the FastFabs LTH (3" dump) and catless with 2.5" exhaust. It was ridiculous.
I will say, that the biggest and best gains that I have gotten in a Neon, come from [proper] exhaust upgrades.


- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009

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Post by Barry McCockener » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:07 pm

timk225 wrote:
Crane 12 advertises 12-14 hp gain.
Magnum head is a gain.
Ported and polished is a gain.

All these gains better equal AT LEAST 20 WHP!!!!



Good luck with that. A 12 isn't much bigger than an '01 Magnum cam. You might see 8 to 10 WHP out of all that. And I'm being damn optimistic. Laughing
No way. No.... HWAY!!!!! You can't be serious.

I am talking about going from a stock 5 SXT ATX cylinder head and cam to a Stage 1 ported and polished MAGNUM head with the Crane 12 and Crane springs.

A Magnum head alone is a proven gain. Ported and polished is a gain. And a mild cam certainly has to be something of a gain.

And you are telling me not to expect more than 8-10 WHP out of ALL THIS?!?!?!?!?!

True, the ATX PCM does limit me to 6300 rpm via its shift points, but come on now!



However, if this is true, I'll have a fully rebuilt and ready to go with a new cam and springs Magnum head in the for sale section soon, even with a new head gasket kit from Modern Performance. Figure $750 all in. Lotsa photos!

Occasional -- you have a PM.
This made me chuckle, a lot. The joys of having an ATX. I do miss mine though. Don't know what year yours is, but on my '00 the rev limiter was 6750 for an ATX.

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Post by NickKo » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:02 pm

NickKo wrote:the PT Cruiser cat converter assembly, is MUCH IMPROVED in this regard. :D ( Which is what I plan on using )

Hell, it's almost TOO damn big. :lol: I will post pics and details later, and let everyone know how it goes. :D


- Nick
Just posting an update - This is 'in progress'.
I'm taking some 'tech photos' along the way, for future reference.

I've mounted the PT Cruiser cat converter to the engine / header - after some proper 'sectioning' and cutting of the elbow piping, that exits the cat converter - so it will properly fit the Neon.

So far, it looks good !! :D


- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009

LyricsNLines
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Post by LyricsNLines » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:00 pm

NickKo wrote:
kc2005ptgt wrote:Yeah, after all the bolt ons and engine mods I did (cam, port/polish, rebuild bottom end and pistons) the biggest boost to my power was the FastFabs LTH (3" dump) and catless with 2.5" exhaust. It was ridiculous.
I will say, that the biggest and best gains that I have gotten in a Neon, come from [proper] exhaust upgrades.


- Nick
I would have to second that for both 1st and 2nd Gens!

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