According to chrysler, this is normal and OK!

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BlackRoseRacing
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:50 pm

what I don't understand is why this sound is most present in cold weather?
Lubrication, in the colder weather even the ATF+4 takes time to start flowing, everything in the trani is lubricated by the splash effect, after time the stop rings have worn out to the point that cold starts cause them to rattle until they are properly lubricated. If we had some type of oil pump in the MTX this problem would never happen, but due to lack of lubrication during cold starts the parts wear rapidly and since these revised stop rings were installed, there wearing prematurely.
I talked to them about fluid recommendations for the colder climates to help with lubricating better, but I already beat them to it. They recommended me to switch from ATF+4 to MTF fluid for the T350 and I told them I was using the MTF fluid from day 1 and I had switched to the ATF because it was thinner, I later flushed the trani and switched to Mobil 1 ATF+4 and it helped for a little while but the noise came back and is now currently worse than back in October.
My trani right now sounds like yours did before you traded the car in....
I think I know what stop rings need to be installed to fix the problem, but I'm waiting for my trani to be removed before I go any farther. Needless to say the fix in parts could be less than $20, but time will tell....
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Post by Mad_Medeiros » Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:35 pm

yeah it was pretty bad.. my car sounded like a demo derby under the hood

infact I wish I had my camera the one day, it sounded so horrifying, it was SCREECHIN, it was quite insane... it was not a belt either it sounded just nuts...

oh well maybe I should inform the new owner if you find a fix

can anything happen if the stop rings were to fail?
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:53 pm

can anything happen if the stop rings were to fail?
Have you ever driven a car without syncro's?
If not, then I would say, the car would be disabled. Years ago before they designed syncro's you used to have to double clutch it to get the gear to engage, when you double clutch it it gets that shaft spinning, and double clutching it gets that shaft spinning even faster to allow you to start meshing the gears....
Ever hear the saying:
"If you can't find it, Grind it"
That's what is going to happen once the syncro's fail. If your lucky you will be able to grab the gear, otherwise you will end up like me, fighting to grab 3rd and 4th gear due to syncro failure.....
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Post by fixitmattman » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:07 pm

Mad_Medeiros wrote:what I don't understand is why this sound is most present in cold weather?
Could be due to different coefficients of thermal expansion causing excessive clearances until everything is the same temperature, or a lack of oil until the transmission warms up. When cold the oil could be too viscous to reach where it's needed, although if that were the likely case the ATF should have made a more noticeable difference as it's usually thinner.

For the T355 they revised the syncrho package, wonder if we could retrofit them to our 350's.
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:48 am

For the T355 they revised the syncrho package, wonder if we could retrofit them to our 350's.
:banghead: That's the fix I had in mind :lol:
Once my trani is out I'm going to talk to NPG about using the T355 syncro's in the T350..
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Post by Mad_Medeiros » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:20 pm

My car sounded sooo bad before I traded it in, but it always shifted fine I was hoping it would blow up.. but it never did haha
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Post by fixitmattman » Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:18 pm

If the last lapping day I threw on the car didn't didn't blow it up I don't know what will. That tranny had a workout that day.

Here's some pictures:

Image

Image

There's a lot in common between the 355 and the 350 trans. It's a good chance that they are swappable. Someone on NC mentioned that they knew someone on the T350 design team quite well. I sent a PM to try and get contact info and pick his brain on the matter but I think I'm pretty much shut down on that one.

Don't wait until the tranny is out. Ask them now so if they say yes you can order the synchro's and have them ready for when the tranny is out.
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:13 pm

Don't wait until the tranny is out. Ask them now so if they say yes you can order the synchro's and have them ready for when the tranny is out
I'm getting a new trani installed into my car....

Also looking at your post, the gear train apparently is currently used items based on what the pic is showing. I do know alot of components from the T355 are shared with the T850....
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Post by Mad_Medeiros » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:30 pm

why do I have a feeling your new tranny is probably going to end up doing the same thing over again?

espiecally if it has the same crappy stop rings?
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:00 pm

Mad_Medeiros wrote:why do I have a feeling your new tranny is probably going to end up doing the same thing over again?

espiecally if it has the same crappy stop rings?
For starters......nice new sig :)
Second: I don't know for sure if there was a production change or not, but AFAIK, the T350's from 04+ use the same syncro's, the T355 uses a different setup that uses the T850 components.....So I'm wondering if the new T355 is and upgraded T350 that uses some components from the T850 to make the T350/T355 stronger.....
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Post by Mad_Medeiros » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:08 pm

thanks

well if you get to keep your old tranny... at least you can rebuild it with the better syncro's... incase it does do it again!
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:55 am

Mad_Medeiros wrote:thanks

well if you get to keep your old tranni... at least you can rebuild it with the better syncro's... incase it does do it again!
yup, thats one of the plans. I did some looking yesterday and it seems possible to use the T355 components in the T350. The T355 uses its own gear ratios and syncro's but it seems alot of the components are also T350/T850 parts mixed together. But thats another topic down the road :lol:
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Post by fixitmattman » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:50 pm

Any word from NVG on the use of 355 synchro's in the 350?

Is there a part number for a replacement synchro package or T355 rebuild kit?
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:36 am

I have not contacted NPG just yet, I'm still waiting to get my trani replaced :banghead:
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Post by fixitmattman » Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:13 pm

So because your tranny hasn't been replaced you can't ask if 355 syncrho's fit in the 350.

I see...

Is there a part number available for a 355 rebuild or synchro kit?
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:38 pm

^^^
honestly, I have not contacted NPG lately due to being overwhelmed with work to do...
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:25 pm

Ok, FINALLY after almost 2months of waiting my NEW trani is finally installed. Noise is gone and everything is working like new. Now I have to wait until I get my lab results from BlackStone and also wait to see if Chrysler scraps my old trani. Once Chrysler does scrap my old trani(hopefully) I have a tech ready to dissect it looking for the so called problem.
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Noisey 95 stratus

Post by Socketman » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:03 am

HI All

I just bought a 95 stratus cheap in need of work. I have fixed all the small stuff and was going to dive into th trans next. I have read this thread with great interest. My trans also makes that horrible noise when cold but once fully warmed it becomes nearly
imperceptible.It also exhibits the same traits as others, pushing the clutch in stops the noise. I bought this car from the original owner and it has the factory clutch,i know this because the shop i work at did all the work on the car.I live in whitehorse yukon which is a very cold climate and the colder it is outside (-30) the noisier the trans is. To my ears it sounds like a countershaft or input bearing but after reading this thread im not so sure.I have plans of finding a donor trans,(to minimize down time) and disassembling it with hopes of determining the nature of the noise.I like the car but the noise is not acceptable. Maybe the synchros hold the answer. Will keep ya posted.

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"Some interesting pictures

Post by Socketman » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:36 pm

Found this site with some interesting pictures of the synchros and how they sit when badly worn. Have a look.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/750788/6

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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:46 am

If the noise goes away with the clutch pedal pushed in it could also be your TO bearing, the issue we are seeing here is the noise is still present whether the pedal is pushed in or not. With the clutch pedal un touched, neutral gate your shifter between 5th and reverse, is the noise still there then?
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Post by Socketman » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:03 am

Blackrose

I did further testing and when between 5th and reverse in neutral the noise is still there. If i apply pressure to the stick with clutch pedal out the noise will quiet down.If you watch the video posted by 2K2RT his does the same as mine but sounds a touch worse.In his vid he pushes in the clutch and the noise goes away as does mine. I am not trying to offend anyone or sound like i know it all but i am a 20yr journeyman mechanic and have rebuilt alot trans over the yrs, cold weather = lots of trans and diff failures/noises.As this is my own car like you down time is not something i can ill afford so i am looking for a core to rebuild and will go through it carefully and hopefully it will be nice and quiet when im done. i will post findings and pics as work progresses.The fact that pushing the stick in neutral quiets it down would lead one to think sychro's but that is just speculation at this point.the real truth will come when i disassemble my trans after the swap. keep us updated on your oil analysis and possible disassembly pending you aquiring your old trans.

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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:41 pm

Thank you...
Right now I'm on standby, Chrysler should let me know in the next few days if my trani is getting scrapped, I'm also waiting on the oil analysis..
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:09 pm

Ok, the Oil analysis has been completed.....
http://blackroseracing.net/Trani/D34726.pdf
You will need Adobe to view it, based on the reports, I't does not give that much detail on what the failing part is :(
But NPG is reading this, so I'll post any updates if available....



Edited 3-27:
Chrysler called back my trani, so I won't be able to tear it apart. I contacted NPG to find out if there getting it back or not, I'll keep ya posted...
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Post by FTWNeon » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:56 am

BlackRoseRacing wrote:Ok, the Oil analysis has been completed.....
http://blackroseracing.net/Trani/D34726.pdf
You will need Adobe to view it, based on the reports, I't does not give that much detail on what the failing part is :(
But NPG is reading this, so I'll post any updates if available....
Off topic but how did I not know Blackstone was in Fort Wayne? :shock: Man I'm an idiot :banghead:
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:27 am

:laughing3:
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Post by fixitmattman » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:48 pm

Well that was what I expected.

As if that new link posted by socketman didn't cement the problem enough.
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:29 pm

We'll I contacted BlackStone and they state the above results were based on an ATX with only 3K miles. There going to resend me a new analysis of the corrected readings. Although the test did show that there was alot of copper in the fluid :roll:
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Put used trans in today

Post by Socketman » Sat May 17, 2008 10:50 pm

So i finally got my used trans out of a 98 neon sport, dohc. Picked up the whole car for 300 bux with 33,000 km on it. The trans is quiet as a mouse now.

I disassembled my old trans, it was clean inside no metal what so ever.I gave it pretty good look over and the synchros were in decent shape for the mileage.What i did notice was alot of play in the gears on the input shaft (which is not serviceable according to chrysler) and i feel this movement would explain the horrible noises i was hearing. Im not taking about end to end play,though there as lots of that as well, but when i grabbed the gear it had movement as though the bushing /bearings were heavily worn.I will try and post a video later on as i am going back to work tomorow to take the input shaft apart for further inspection.
Will keep you all posted.

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fellow neon enthusiasts

Post by sxbs » Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:18 am

i read the entire post for this issue and i would like to inform those that want to know. i have a 2003 dodge neon se, started out as a ATX, i changed it to a MTX. oem parts for the swap, 2005 transmission, ecm, throttle body, pedals, linkage, slave/master cylinder, clutch, it too started to make this noise recently, started out quiet and is getting louder and louder. i am currently stationed in Camp Pendleton, CA. this chatter noise goes quieter when it warms up all of the way and when you push in the clutch it noticeably quiets but is still present. all of the parts were put in properly and tho not all of the parts were new they were of decent enough quality to pay to much for them, new parts were bought where applicable but i want to stay as close to stock as i can.[/quote]
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Post by fixitmattman » Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:30 pm

Got a little piece of nagafuki surprise last night. Dropped the trans to get at the rear main as she was starting to get pretty leaky. To my surprise this is what I found:

Image

Yup rear main as dry as a bone.

Image

Trans input shaft bearing and seal, very much not so dry. There's also a bit of play in the input bearing as well so I figure that would be a good contributing factor to the noise. Unsure yet if I want to rebuild the trans myself or just send it out to a tranny shop for an overhaul, but either way the innerds of the tranny will be exposed for observation.
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