According to chrysler, this is normal and OK!

Questions about axles, transmissions, differentials, pretty much anything that connects the engine to the wheels, this is the place for those questions.
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Post by fixitmattman » Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:37 pm

Great idea. Remove the oil pump and starve 3rd gear synchro's and stop rings of oil.

A number of people tried that on the other .org. Some had the noise go away, but most didn't.
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Post by occasional demons » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:52 pm

Drakito wrote: You can either bend it in the middle to make it fit better or take a punch and flatten 4 spots on the outside edge of it. Either way you want it to be very tight when going back in. Make sure and put the rubber plug back in the end of the shaft post install. Clean the mating surfaces, re RTV it, then torque the end cover to 21ftlbs.
Um, it doesn't seem to me that he said to remove it permantly.
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Post by NickKo » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:06 am

Drakito wrote:There is an easy fix that works for around 50% of the 350 and 350HD transmissions.
First remove the end plate in the drivers side wheel well. Clean up the RTV and pull the input shaft's(closest to the front of the car) rubber(actually fiberide, donut looking thing) boot out of the end. Grab some needle nose Pliers and then pull the oil pump out. It is a little too small and loose. Since they are loose they rattle(in addition to the brass synchros) a lot when cold. Also, since they are loose, they don't push enough oil through to the synchros and needle bearings.

You can either bend it in the middle to make it fit better or take a punch and flatten 4 spots on the outside edge of it. Either way you want it to be very tight when going back in. Make sure and put the rubber plug back in the end of the shaft post install. Clean the mating surfaces, re RTV it, then torque the end cover to 21ftlbs.
WELCOME to the board, Dave !! :withstupid:

This man knows his craft. :thumbup:
I have to make a trip out to UT. someday and meet him, I've already made a trip out to TX. to visit one of his parts suppliers.....

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Post by Drakito » Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:32 pm

Thanks Nick!
You are welcome to crash in any time.
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:13 am

Welcome to the boards, I just reviewed your post over at the ORG and it sounds like you are going to be a very helpfull source of information for our drivetrain topic :thumbup:
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Post by Drakito » Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:44 pm

I do what I can, anyone can feel free to pm me about anything MTX related.
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Post by Car6on14 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:52 pm

there doesnt happen to be any write up with pics of the procedures Drakito described anywhere? Im not to comfortable pulling that apart w/o seeing what im getting into first... and if I do it, anyway the dealer would kno? i dont wanna void my 7 / 70...

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Post by NeonNick925 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:41 pm

I have an 05' that has 56xxx on it & it is making that noise :banghead: Noise goes away after it warms up,drives fine,sounds like dog poop. I'll try to get a video of it soon. Jus saw this thread as i was gonna start doin some research on what it could be & saw this first & it matches what my car is doin,FML.
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Post by racer12306 » Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:41 am

It's not a really big deal, my car has nearly 90,000 miles on it and it does this.
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Post by NeonNick925 » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:20 pm

^^^ May not be "bad for the car" but isn't gonna help if I wanna sale the car. Lol,I can see it now. Oh don't worry about that sound,chrysler says its normal...even tho it sounds like a muncie(sp?) rock crusher tranny. It'll go away when it warms up...promise. I'll keep an eye on this thread 2 see if anything changes. From what I got outta the 10 pages is that the prob is more dominant in 04-05'? So would it fix the ring rattle if I could slap a tranny from an 00-02'?
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Post by occasional demons » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:27 pm

'01-'02 more correctly. ('00 is a different case half for the cable clutch bellhousing.)
A tranny swap before selling/trading might pay for itself in trade in/sale value alone. Since swapping the MTX is basically no harder than a clutch replacement, it wouldn't cost anymore laborwise if you paid a shop to do it. (If you didn't have the means.)
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Post by NickKo » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:57 pm

Car6on14 wrote:there doesnt happen to be any write up with pics of the procedures Drakito described anywhere? Im not to comfortable pulling that apart w/o seeing what im getting into first... and if I do it, anyway the dealer would kno? i dont wanna void my 7 / 70...
Writeup here:
http://dope.dhs.org/Car_Stuff/Tech_Arti ... ow-To.html

Pics here:
http://dope.dhs.org/car_stuff/Tech_Arti ... ap_How-To/

The link and pics will give you an understanding of what is involved, even if you are not changing differentials, only removing yours, to install safeing tabs, <-- which is a VERY good idea.

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Post by Mad_Medeiros » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:43 pm

Back from the dead

listen to matt, I removed the oil Slinger, the metal thing you said you removed..

it didn't help one bit, we know what the issue is why are people trying to determine its something else?

synchronizer ring prematuraly wears out, a fix? none. you gotta deal with it.

getting some real cold weather here now, -17 celcius.. my srt4 tranny is silent, and smooth.
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Post by fixitmattman » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:45 pm

Hey look at me, I'm going to contribute more than sarcastic douchebaggery for once. Take note, this is rare.

So I've slowly been working away on a trans re-build for a replacement of my current trans. The carrier bearings were toast when I changed out the input bearing/seal 2 years ago, can't imagine what they look like now, but I can pick out gear whine at highway speed now so the trans is coming due.

Anywho, in the process of rebuilding another trans for swap while I still drive the car and I've notice a few things during teardown of this trans. Trans was purchased from another NeonCanada member partout, advised that trans ran and shifted fine (based on what I see he was more than correct), un-confirmed from him if it made the noise (I never asked) however I suspect this one did by what I found. Previously it had been mentioned it was a defect with the synchronizer stop rings rattling around, now I think we have a little more light.

The layshafts. Nothing special here. In typical shape, you can't tell from the photo's but there's still a good amount of friction material in the stop ring and fit snugly, will confirm on further teardown.
Image

Here's the 1st/2nd synchronizer ring. The side edges of the ring are smooth and nicely polished. The type of surface one would expect to see.
Image
But notice the root of the synchro ring isn't so shiney? At first this would seem to be no big deal, this isn't a high wear area by any means. But on closer inspection it looks like there's been metal to metal contact. Another look at the 5th gear synchronizer ring:
Image
Again we can see evidence of metal to metal contact at the ring root. No picture of 3/4 but it's the same as 5.

Let's take a look at the shift forks. This photo sucks, but it's of the 1/2 fork:
Image
3/4 fork:
Image
3/4-5:
Image
The shift forks are a cast iron or cast steel piece with the mold parting lines right down the center of the spine of the fork. No big deal, but the parting lines add a bit of thickness potentially un-planned for. Also you can see several areas on this part line where the fork has been rubbing on the synchronizer ring (the shiney parts).



So what's going on?
For the most part the forks ride quite nicecly on the synchro ring, however insert it just a bit too far and it rubs on the fork as we can see. When turning it in your hand you can hear it make a scraping noise in similar tone to our cold weather videos. No brainer that when weather is good the forks ride properly in the stop ring an no noise happens. When everything is new the trans works great, we all know that. However add some wear on the plastic pads, the shift shaft bearings, etc., slop generated from different rates of expansion between the components and after a while and some number of km we get the fork riding and rattling on the ring on cold startup. Of course once the trans warms up all is well.

So what can we do?
For the average person not much other than live with it. Most trans shops are going to re-build with oe or replacement parts which are just going to do the same thing again with time. Stock forks have the plastic wear pads cast integral to the shift forks, so replacements aren't happening very easy. You could come up with a custom cast pad, or as mentioned braze a new brass running surface and have it machined. Both are probably not on anybody's to do list any time soon. I've seen welded steel-machined down wear pads, but I wouldn't recommend that for any daily driver unless you've got a high grade bearing class surface, which probably isn't happening. Otherwise the metal to metal wear would be pretty bad.

Why don't SRT NVG-850's do this:
They use brass shift forks. All the speed racers complain about it when they break after shifting them like superhero's, but for normal people even if those transmissions had the same problem as our it wouldn't make noise. Brass is a great wear surface and would wear away before the ring did, it also wouldn't grind like our steel on steel case here.



So what's next?
Proably my first plan of attack will be to grind away the flashing from the mold line and see if that helps any. I'll take it from there.
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Post by Mad_Medeiros » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:22 am

LAWL at the shifting the t850 like a superhero comment.

Great write up Matt, so you pretty much figured it out hands down.

It's funny every time I see an R/T now I listen for the noise...
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Post by fixitmattman » Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:38 am

I don't know about that, more like took bits of information and confirmed it. It's funny, because if you look at other tranny threads you can see the same wear on their forks as well, whether they have the pads or not.
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Post by OB » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:27 pm

I have some info to contribute regarding my own findings...

My trans started having a notchy shifting issue about 2 years ago. It kind of happened out of nowhere, and hasn't really changed since. Never grinds, but it feels like it pops twice into each gear intermittently. Sometimes it goes right in, other times it's a loud clunk, while sometimes it fights me and I almost have to force it. The fluid was changed twice during from the time since the problem started. Car was at approximately 20K miles when it started.

After some research, I decided to try Mobil1 10w30 full syn high mileage motor oil instead of ATF+4. This was about 6 months ago, at maybe 40k miles. Very shortly afterwards, I started having the NOISE. It got worse and worse, very similar to the sound in the OP's first video. So I started returning things to stock planning on taking it to the dealer under warranty. The other day I switched back to ATF, and the noise all but went away. I can still vaguely hear it stopped at higher revs (2000-4000), but it isnt audible at idle like it was. Weather has been warming up here too, which probably isn't helping matters as far as reproducing the sound. However, shift effort hasn't changed AT ALL. So it appears I might have multiple issues, possibly related, maybe not.

To better describe the original noise it made: Worst when cold (not weather wise, just cold startup anytime). Most noticeable at idle, when the exhaust and intake are quietest. Can hear it cruising in gear, on or off throttle, especially when next to a wall or building where the noise bounces back. ALWAYS goes away when I put the clutch pedal in (aka it is definitely a trans issue). I was thinking it might be the input shaft bearings, based on some research I've done on general transaxle noise trouble shooting.
-Derek

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Post by heydockyle » Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:56 pm

My car only makes the noise when cold. After running it a few miles it goes away.

And after putting the Mobil1 in the first gen it quieted it down and made it shift smoother.

Ofcourse the kid had gear lube in it :banghead: :banghead:
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:17 pm

Bringing it back up from the dead, my current trani is having the same issue as trani #2 and #3. But this time around the noise is more frequent because of my increased torque output. Under acceleration the noise almost sounds like detonation but it is actually the trani screaming at me because of the increased torque of the motor. And of course with the cold weather here in WNY lately the cold noise is just like the other trani's I've had.....
Today I was researching the info that a Chrysler engineer posted about Mobil 1 High Mileage 10-40 being similar to the Chrysler MTF fluid but having a higher PPM of zinc which helps keep things happy inside of the trani and keeps things quiet too. The post I read stated that at the time of the topic Mobil 1 High Mileage had about 1200 PPM of zinc in it and thats why it was recommended. We'll making some phone calls good luck trying to find Mobil 1 HighMileage. As of today I pulled documents from Mobil and it stated that the High Mileage formula is now 900 PPM Vs the original post of 1200 PPM. So I started some digging and the Chrysler engineer sated it must be SL approved also.
Today I drained the fluid out of my trani and installed Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10-40 oil. This fluid is rated at 1600 PPM and is not for use in an automobile it's rated for a motorcycle that uses motor oil to lube the gears in the transmission. The trani took almost 3 quarts of this fluid!. Now keep in mind the trani and fluid were at room temp when completed....The ride home tonight, the trani was quiet, no rattling, no noise under load. It was as quiet as a brand new trani!
Tomorrow morning I'll see how it sounds with an overnight cold soak....
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Post by NickKo » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:49 am

BlackRoseRacing wrote:Bringing it back up from the dead, my current trani is having the same issue as trani #2 and #3. But this time around the noise is more frequent because of my increased torque output. Under acceleration the noise almost sounds like detonation but it is actually the trani screaming at me because of the increased torque of the motor. And of course with the cold weather here in WNY lately the cold noise is just like the other trani's I've had.....
Today I was researching the info that a Chrysler engineer posted about Mobil 1 High Mileage 10-40 being similar to the Chrysler MTF fluid but having a higher PPM of zinc which helps keep things happy inside of the trani and keeps things quiet too. The post I read stated that at the time of the topic Mobil 1 High Mileage had about 1200 PPM of zinc in it and thats why it was recommended. We'll making some phone calls good luck trying to find Mobil 1 HighMileage. As of today I pulled documents from Mobil and it stated that the High Mileage formula is now 900 PPM Vs the original post of 1200 PPM. So I started some digging and the Chrysler engineer sated it must be SL approved also.

Today I drained the fluid out of my trani and installed Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10-40 oil. This fluid is rated at 1600 PPM and is not for use in an automobile it's rated for a motorcycle that uses motor oil to lube the gears in the transmission. The trani took almost 3 quarts of this fluid!. Now keep in mind the trani and fluid were at room temp when completed....The ride home tonight, the trani was quiet, no rattling, no noise under load. It was as quiet as a brand new trani!
Tomorrow morning I'll see how it sounds with an overnight cold soak....
THANK you for this important info, and please do keep us posted !



- Nick
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-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:27 pm

we'll 2 days into having the fluid change done:
1 - The cold rattle is still there but very faint now
2 - Acceleration noise is now gone! Any time I put a load on the trani whether it was driving hard or easy excel it was making the noise. Since the fluid change that noise is gone.
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Post by ltr450r » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:17 pm

interesting.. now the test is to see if the noise stays gone or if it returns... i might consider switching to that, i'm running the mobil 1 high mileage 10-30
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:25 pm

ltr450r wrote:interesting.. now the test is to see if the noise stays gone or if it returns... i might consider switching to that, i'm running the mobil 1 high mileage 10-30
Like I said above, I was looking for the high mileage oil but no one carries it here locally and the PPM was only about 900 Vs the 1600 PPM I'm using now. I'm waiting to see what happens long term also since I do not even have 100 miles on the car. Hopefully once this fluid starts going through the entire trani the noise will go away.
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Post by ltr450r » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:45 pm

hopefully it will. I am going to flush mine soon since I just changed from ATF to Mobil 1. I'm sure theres some ATF mixed in with it. I'll be watching this to see if anything changes..
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Post by fixitmattman » Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:07 pm

Why you guys go about playing around with every oil known to man when there is already an oil designed specifically for this transmission is beyond me.
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:21 pm

fixitmattman wrote:Why you guys go about playing around with every oil known to man when there is already an oil designed specifically for this transmission is beyond me.
I'm on my 3rd transmission using ATF+4. All have the same results showing premature wear of the syncro stop rings causing this noise. My higher up contact is aware of this issue and since most of our cars are out of warranty, Chrysler will not issue any type of bulletin or recommended repair. The contact told me that there is a repair for this issue, but since other things come to play my contact stated to use Amsoil MTF since it's the best fluid out there. Of course this reply was prior to the fluid I'm using now being released.
Also the recommended fluid was also advised to use before any noticeable issues started....
I'm going to contact this person and let them know of current issues happening again and see what he states....
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Post by OB » Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:24 pm

I can't make up my mind if I want to rebuild my spare 01-02 3.94 trans or if I should just flush it and toss it in with a new clutch and rebuild it down the road. Might not be in the cards financially to rebuild it, since I still need to come up with $300+ for a clutch and TOB. I'm considering using M1HM in it either way, but am second guessing using it if I don't end up tearing it down. Thoughts?

My 3.55 HD is still shifting like shit, but the "noise" hasn't worsened since I put the ATF back in it awhile back. It seems to like the ATF over the M1HM. Drakito thinks that the fact that the damage was already done might be the reason why my 3.55 didn't respond well to the M1HM, and that the differences in viscosity characteristics might have caused the noise to get louder. Then again, I'm fairly certain that my shifting issue (and the likely resulting excessive wear on the rings) is the result of improper crossover cable adjustment, causing the selectors to ride on the synchro rings at all times. Ironic that the selector/synchro relationship is already a problem, and I managed to screw up and kick it into overdrive!
-Derek

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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:51 pm

Rumor has it if you use the ATF add the Mopar Limited slip additive, the additive adds the extra chemicals needed for the trani regardless if it is a limited slip or not.
I do not believe this and I'm waiting for a response from my NPG contact to back things up. It seems the fluid recomendations are based on the old school turbo days when they used motor oil in the old 525/528 trani's except now a days we have better fluids available.
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Post by ltr450r » Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:54 pm

fixitmattman wrote:Why you guys go about playing around with every oil known to man when there is already an oil designed specifically for this transmission is beyond me.
everyone has there personal preference about oils... and if a company can save a little money by using a decent oil rather than the best they probably will.
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Post by NickKo » Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:56 pm

fixitmattman wrote:Why you guys go about playing around with every oil known to man when there is already an oil designed specifically for this transmission is beyond me.
Why not ?? Why not try to find something that works better ??

Not to mention that, technology and the *available* fluids and formulations can, and will, change over time.
It is good to keep up with alternatives.

As an example, many guys with older musclecars & flat tappet cams + lifters, have suffered a rash of camshaft failures lately.
The cause of these failures, have been traced to decreasing amounts of sulfur and zinc compounds, that have been reduced or eliminated in most 'newer' oils. ( in the name of pollution reduction, EPA standards, etc.)
Today's engines don't require those compounds, since the auto industry has switched to roller cams, on newer engines.


Also, as 'ltr450r' said, some folks might be willing to pay a few extra bucks, to get a better fluid, if there is one available.



- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

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