40te/41te differences and building them up?

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timk225
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40te/41te differences and building them up?

Post by timk225 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:59 pm

I have done transmission rebuilds in the past, to include 904's, 727's, 413's, and 670's. But never a 604/40te/41te.

From what I have been reading, it seems the only difference between the 40 and 41 is a different low/reverse piston, and an extra clutch disc and steel in the low/reverse clutch assembly.

Is this correct?

I'd use the 41te if I end up swapping a 2.4 into a '03-'05 NGC Neon.

While I have it out, it would be a great time to rebuild it. Are there any articles anywhere that show how to build it up for durability and torque capacity? Like maybe to 42LRE 3.5 V6 Dodge Intrepid specs?

I've heard that they can be built up but haven't found an article on it yet.

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Post by NickKo » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:17 am

Another challenge to consider, is the differences between the TCM's.
The TCM's in the more 'performance' oriented versions ( such as a PT GT Cruiser ), will have revised shift points.

Since the TCM works with the PCM, I don't think it is possible to make a TCM out of a PT GT, work with a Neon PCM; or vice-versa - since they probably won't work together, due to programming.

To make it work in a Neon, you'd probably have to find a way to use both the TCM and the PCM from the PT GT, in the Neon, along with the 'good' ATX.

I am probably overlooking something, but that's a starting point.
Free bump for this thread !!

- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009

stdlystdmufn
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Post by stdlystdmufn » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:53 am

He's planning on doing a 2.4 swap so it would be a great time to swap a gt pt or just a pt na pcm/tcm and harness in during the swap.
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in the middle of a DOHC and MTX swap and going with an ASP kit pwered by the S259 batmowheel

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Gnuserup
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Post by Gnuserup » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:39 pm

a neon - what else ?

timk225
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Post by timk225 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:46 pm

I want to know how many clutch discs and steels are in each of the 4 clutch packs in the 40TE and 41TE models.

I spoke to a guy I have known for years who runs a transmission repair shop. He's familiar with the common failure points in the mid-2000 model years, which is the years of cars I'd be considering.

First thing he mentioned was how the radiators' transmission fluid cooler is known to leak, so that's the first mod for me. I was going to put in a BIG front mount fluid cooler anyhow.

In what model year did that variable line pressure BS start?

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Post by occasional demons » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:57 pm

What I found on my '94 Shadow, was that the 41te shifted a bit weird when it got too cool. I installed a Perma Cool oil cooler t'stat with the aux cooler, and it seemed much happier. It is set to open at 180º, which is about where you want it. Anything below 170º isn't really good for any ATX.

But shy away from the 1/2 pipe inlets. They crack too easily. The 3/8 pipe are the better option.
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timk225
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Post by timk225 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:00 am

I spoke to a transmission shop owner I have known for years. Apparently, the 41TE low / reverse clutch assembly has an extra disc and plate the 40TE's don't have. Mighty half-assed of Chrysler, to compromise transmission strength for one lousy clutch disc!

The low / reverse piston is of a different height to make up the difference, so I'd swap it to a 41 TE piston and add the extra clutch and plate!

What are good, solid, reliable clutch discs to use? Raybestos Blue Plates? Alto Red clutches? Stock ones?

Are there any other places in the clutch packs I can add an extra disc without radical modifications and all custom parts?

A stock rebuild isn't good enough for me. I want wretched excess. I want a 41TE that no 2.0 or 2.4 N/A will ever break or wear out with proper care and fluid coolers.

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Post by stdlystdmufn » Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:51 am

timk225 wrote:Mighty half-assed of Chrysler, to compromise transmission strength for one lousy clutch disc!
think about how much 1 clutch and 1 steel cost. now multiply that by every 40te ever made since it was designed. i imagine you will come up with a BIG number. also they (chrysler) don't design cars to be built up like we build them. mostly because they design, build, and sell cars for the broadest possible base of consumers. also the 41te was WAY stronger than it really needed to be for a 2.0L econo-box.
timk225 wrote:Are there any other places in the clutch packs I can add an extra disc without radical modifications and all custom parts?
nope tolerances are pretty tight in a transmission. so tight that if you forget to put a snap ring in the right place it is painfully visible by the time you put/try to put the oil pump on.
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Post by occasional demons » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:41 am

Problem is they used the 40te behind the 2.4, and possibly the 2.7.



Also the allpar link Gnuserup posted is incorrect, that the automatic speed control overspeed reduction feature was added in 1995.

Both 1993, and '94 41te's I had/have have this feature.

FWIW:
The 1993 41te has 146,000 and going strong.
3.0 V6 about the same specs a a 2.4 power/torque wise.

After ~60,000 the 40te in my brother's '03 Sebring was totally worn out.

It mostly comes down to which TCM program you have. Too smooth of a shift will kill any ATX.

Get a program that shifts firm to hard, and change the fluid every 50,000 miles, and these will outlast the car. But that one, you are on your own.
Bill
dblsg wrote:ya'll a bunch of post whores
Seriously people, this is 2019 not 1920.
Too much time spent here is a sign of a bad case of Ownaneonvirus.

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1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
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Post by Danteneon » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:30 am

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the second digit in the trans nomenclature is the level of torque the trans can handle. I don't know the scale Chrysler used, but the 41 will handle more torque than the 40.

Makes the 47RE trans sound more badass now, huh?
If I could just figure out how to meld the Outback and the Neon into one car...

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Post by occasional demons » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:32 am

On a scale of 0 to 10, I guess that makes the 40te a big nothing. :rofl:


Edit: I recall reading somewhere that the 3.3 V6 was only mated to the 41te, because it would fail before the crank would. It was their safety for the engine. They figured if it was pushed to it's limits of output, the crank would fail.

So they put something behind it, that would break first. Not that they ever made that kind of power in production form. IIRC it was in the 270-320 hp range that the crank would break.

Didn't really see the logic, but it may have been something trickled down from initial engine testing, in case they ever got brave. So no production flywheel/modular clutch was ever produced for it. Not that MTX's haven't been mated to it in the hands of a few sick puppies.

But I think it is pretty well agreed on, that the stock 41te won't hold up to that for long.
Bill
dblsg wrote:ya'll a bunch of post whores
Seriously people, this is 2019 not 1920.
Too much time spent here is a sign of a bad case of Ownaneonvirus.

2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
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Post by Danteneon » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:55 am

Sadly enough, I don't believe Chrysler ever offered anything higher than 1 in the T (transverse) configuration. Even a 42TE would be a nice upgrade.

Hell, if they could get up to the 7 or 8 level, there would be a mess of SRTs running around with ATXs. I personally would like to see a 57TE. That would be pretty sweet.
If I could just figure out how to meld the Outback and the Neon into one car...

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Post by timk225 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:57 pm

Having a transmission be too strong is better than too weak! I see the 40 and I think "weak tranny that will fail at the first sign of any high performance use". 41 is better, but not a lot better.

In case I didn't mention it, I have built several each of 727s, 904s, 413s, and 670 Chrysler automatics, and I have done a lot of research on how to custom build them.

I know a firmer shift will let the transmission live longer due to it not slipping the clutches and bands (where applicable), but a "bang-screech" Torqueflite would be a bit annoying in everyday use.

Are there any aftermarket shift kit programs that can be flashed into a NGC for an '03-'05 Neon? I'm thinking that whatever would be considered a Stage 1, possibly Stage 2, would be acceptable for daily driving use.

What about clutch disc choices?

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Post by NickKo » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:06 am

timk225 wrote: Are there any aftermarket shift kit programs that can be flashed into a NGC for an '03-'05 Neon? I'm thinking that whatever would be considered a Stage 1, possibly Stage 2, would be acceptable for daily driving use.
Unfortunately - There are no aftermarket shift solutions for the electronically-shifted Neon ATX's, that I am aware of.

There may be better clutches available - I'll have to let someone else with more knowledge than me, comment on that.


Here is a great thread from 'The.Org', when you have the time.... It's 25 pages long !! : http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=307286



- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009

occasional demons
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Post by occasional demons » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:11 am

There is a stage 1 PCM/TCM upgrade for the GT cruiser that changes the shifts, but pretty sure that is NGC only.
Bill
dblsg wrote:ya'll a bunch of post whores
Seriously people, this is 2019 not 1920.
Too much time spent here is a sign of a bad case of Ownaneonvirus.

2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
Help support 2GN!

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