Supercharger

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 6:58 pm

flame....kidding....
I'm assuming lonewolf already considered doing that, BUT I think he is trying to get it setup to be a bolt on without losing your A/C or PS pump...

Casketbearer · Post by **Casketbearer** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:27 am

Lonewolf wants everything already on there to function, plus wants to make the kit inexpensive and upgradeable. Andre also believes the most gains will be seen with a remote mount setup as opposed to directly to the intake.

HOTRODACR · Post by **HOTRODACR** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:05 pm

Here are a few comments. First, since the 2nd gens TB doesnt attach with a flange, you can make a small plenum with a 2.5" pipe sticking out for the TB to attach to.

Cruise should not be too difficult to keep since you can put a vacuum resovoir anywhere, including inside the fender.

The way I look at it, the belt is going to be a biggest pain in the ass.

The stock 4 rib belt wont cut it for a supercharger.

The only way I could see the remote location working is if you made a custom crank pulley that had the correct amount of ribs for the supercharger pulley. The Pulley has 2 steps in it, one for the alt. and the other for the a/c-p/s. With the supercharger in the rear of the engine, you would have to use the alternator step of the pulley. Since the alternator step is closest to the engine the added width would throw the belt alignment off for the a/c, p/s and the tensioner. Hopefully you could shim all of that out to get everything back into alignment. It might be easy with the p/s pump, but I bet the a/c compressor and the tensioner give you grief.

assuming that gets worked out, your going to have to run the wider belt to the s/c. Your going to need a custom pulley on the s/c that has an additional step so you can run a belt from it to the alternator. This of course is going to mean making a custom pulley for the alternator since it will be driven by a much smaller pulley than you will be able to fit on a custom supercharger pulley.

Also, since the alternator will be in the way of the supercharger belt it will have to be relocated down (if thats even possible).

I really don't think there is hope to make this a concession free install. Its going to take a lot of custom work.

Someone made a similar kit for a 1st gen sohc. I saw pics of it on ebay. First gens have different accesory layouts though. Plus it might have relocated/ deleted some things.

When it gets down to it, it will end up not being worth it.

With the srt turbo adapter, adding a turbo has become much cheaper to install.

2003silverneonsxt · Post by **2003silverneonsxt** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:31 pm

i dont know if these were posted here since i dont read the whole 7 pages.. but it can be done in a 1st gen atleast

try doing the same thing since the engine bays are close to the same size from what i was told

weber · Post by **weber** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:42 pm

HOTRODACR wrote:Here are a few comments. First, since the 2nd gens TB doesnt attach with a flange, you can make a small plenum with a 2.5" pipe sticking out for the TB to attach to.

Cruise should not be too difficult to keep since you can put a vacuum resovoir anywhere, including inside the fender.

The way I look at it, the belt is going to be a biggest pain in the ass.

The stock 4 rib belt wont cut it for a supercharger.

The only way I could see the remote location working is if you made a custom crank pulley that had the correct amount of ribs for the supercharger pulley. The Pulley has 2 steps in it, one for the alt. and the other for the a/c-p/s. With the supercharger in the rear of the engine, you would have to use the alternator step of the pulley. Since the alternator step is closest to the engine the added width would throw the belt alignment off for the a/c, p/s and the tensioner. Hopefully you could shim all of that out to get everything back into alignment. It might be easy with the p/s pump, but I bet the a/c compressor and the tensioner give you grief.

assuming that gets worked out, your going to have to run the wider belt to the s/c. Your going to need a custom pulley on the s/c that has an additional step so you can run a belt from it to the alternator. This of course is going to mean making a custom pulley for the alternator since it will be driven by a much smaller pulley than you will be able to fit on a custom supercharger pulley.

Also, since the alternator will be in the way of the supercharger belt it will have to be relocated down (if thats even possible).

I really don't think there is hope to make this a concession free install. Its going to take a lot of custom work.

Someone made a similar kit for a 1st gen sohc. I saw pics of it on ebay. First gens have different accesory layouts though. Plus it might have relocated/ deleted some things.

When it gets down to it, it will end up not being worth it.

With the srt turbo adapter, adding a turbo has become much cheaper to install.

exactly, it can be done...but it wont be worth the effort in the long run.

Its obviously a pain and can't be done cheap. Thats why the idea was scrapped years ago. Nice try, but turbo is clearly the ideal way to go on the neon. EasIER install, and easy on your wallet

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:24 pm

So you want to join the bandwagon like everyone else

If Lonewolf gets the R&D done right this is an easy 215hp motor(non-mag) Ok now you have the Street Racing bottom end power, now the motor starts to run out of topend...thats where the SRT setup comes into play.
There is NO-ONE out there now with a 8.1:1 comp 2.0 SOHC with a twin charger setup.....

HOTRODACR · Post by **HOTRODACR** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:28 pm

Thats also the problem. You don't want low end. Big low end= no traction. I highly doubt a sohc will see 215 HP with a supercharger on a stock motor.

Casketbearer · Post by **Casketbearer** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:11 am

shit...lets give it a good shot before everyone becomes doubting thomases

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:57 am

the 205hp has been done already on our magnum motors with a supercharger...the old SRT concept

weber · Post by **weber** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:26 pm

BlackRoseRacing wrote:the 205hp has been done already on our magnum motors with a supercharger...the old SRT concept

I thought that was in the 180ish range? i could very well be wrong though

Ash · Post by **Ash** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:05 pm

all the naysaying kills me. i was in support of the alpine until it was axed and i'll be behind you guys for this too. i just hope it actually comes through. just keep us posted for requests and other things you may need. don't flake out.

HOTRODACR · Post by **HOTRODACR** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:27 am

Ash wrote:all the naysaying kills me. i was in support of the alpine until it was axed and i'll be behind you guys for this too. i just hope it actually comes through. just keep us posted for requests and other things you may need. don't flake out.

Did you even look at my post? I didn't just say, "It can't be done."

Another thing that kills me is the supercharger selection.

Picking random superchargers that are built for engines nearly twice our size is not a great idea.

It will pump out wayy to many CFM. You dont want to just bolt on a random supercharger that isn't sized for our engine.

HOTRODACR · Post by **HOTRODACR** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:24 am

I just looked at the Install directions for a Jackson racing s/c for the PT. Their supercharger runs off a 4 rib belt. So that would make things much easier.

I think if someone REALLY wanted a supercharger, they could buy a PT kit and modify it to work.

Casketbearer · Post by **Casketbearer** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:42 pm

I bought the m62/ m60 because that is the supercharger used with the srt-4 concept.

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:56 pm

HOTRODACR wrote:Another thing that kills me is the supercharger selection.

Picking random superchargers that are built for engines nearly twice our size is not a great idea.

It will pump out wayy to many CFM. You dont want to just bolt on a random supercharger that isn't sized for our engine.

Let's see what Eaton has to say about this:

Eaton M62 wrote: The Eaton Supercharger Model 62 is designed for 2.5L to 4.0L passenger car and light truck engines, but may also be suitable for other engine sizes, depending on total system performance requirements

Given the fact that these are going to be remote mount systems and have to charge not only intake plenum volume, but some piping depending on where the TB is in addition to the feeding the engine, I don't think it's oversized at all.

There is also a lot more than just the "CFM" rating of the charger to consider. If I wanted pure CFM, I would use a leaf blower.

You can also run more boost with a bigger blower

Matt

HOTRODACR · Post by **HOTRODACR** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:43 pm

soo... Who wants to chip in for a Jackson Racing PT supercharger kit?

I am the fabricator at a shop that makes turbo kits for LS1 f-bodys, vettes and 4.6 mustangs so I have the tools and talent to modify stuff to make it fit.

The coolest part of the Jackson racing kit is the black box they use for fuel enrichment. Im sure it would work on a Neon if you knew what wires to tap.

Casketbearer · Post by **Casketbearer** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:23 am

Jackson racing PT kit = $3,295.00 + custom intake
v.s.
Ebay m62 = $173 and change
Lonewolf kit = presumably under $1,000 + $173 for supercharger

hmm......

HOTRODACR · Post by **HOTRODACR** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:17 am

Casketbearer wrote:Jackson racing PT kit = $3,295.00 + custom intake
v.s.
Ebay m62 = $173 and change
Lonewolf kit = presumably under $1,000 + $173 for supercharger

hmm......

Good freekin luck with that. If they billed out at $50 per hour, that would only be 20 hours of work. Thats not including several hundred dollars for a fuel setup, at least a hundred for oil supply/return.

Your going to need a 4 rib pulley for the supercharger, a tensioner setup, a bypass valve if its not on the supercharger already, all of the parts to mount it to the motor, the outlet manifold and piping etc. etc. etc. .

I don't mean to rain on your parade man. I would like to see a supercharger kit as much as the next guy. If I can possibly expose some things you havn't considered it will only help get this done.

when you had the supercharger, did you try and put it back behind the engine to see if there was room?

HOTRODACR · Post by **HOTRODACR** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:43 pm

Well I answered my own question. I found the data sheet for the m62 on http://www.capa.com.au/eaton.htm . Then I did some measuring on my car.

I was also looking at the front of the car. If the powersteering wasnt there, it would be a slam dunk to fit the S/C up front.

It looks like there is plenty of room above the alternator for a p/s pump.

Does anyone know if there is an aftermarket electric p/s pump?

Another thing to think about is if the 4 rib belt will stand up to the supercharger without slipping.

Casketbearer · Post by **Casketbearer** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:21 pm

The supercharger has a bypass valve, although you may make a good point about the pulley situation. Any suggestions?

HOTRODACR · Post by **HOTRODACR** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 2:50 pm

Casketbearer wrote:The supercharger has a bypass valve, although you may make a good point about the pulley situation. Any suggestions?

Either hit up eaton and see if they can sell you a 4 rib with the correct diameter, or have a custom one machined. That would become rather expensive though.

If you called up eaton and told them what you plan on doing they would probably be very helpful. My pal was very seriously considering putting a centrifugal charger on his r/t. He called up a few companys and they were extremely helpful. procharger sent him some misc. mounting plates and brackets for him to use in mock up.

Long time Neonite Tim Kish (of show car fame) actually works for eaton. He brought a m62 to one of the Neon gathering for us to ooh and ahh over. See if you can contact him.

This thread has actually renewed my interest in a supercharger.

I am buying the above mentioned r/t from my pal in a month or 2.

He deleted the p/s and a/c from it already. Its a built motor with higher compression (~12:1) but it has no problems ingesting a 75 shot of spray. The car makes peak HP near its 8100 rev limit and runs a 005 cam, so some small boost would really give it some low end grunt to match its high rpm power.

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:25 pm

To do it cheaply, you can use a 6k pulley as custom diameters are much more readily available from other performance shops for mustangs and such. Then you only use 4 ribs of it.

Matt

HOTRODACR · Post by **HOTRODACR** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:04 pm

fixitmattman wrote:To do it cheaply, you can use a 6k pulley as custom diameters are much more readily available from other performance shops for mustangs and such. Then you only use 4 ribs of it.

Matt

I dont think that would be a good idea. The belt would have nothing keeping it from shifting over. Once it moved it would throw the belt.

Another thing to consider.
With a 4 rib belt you would want as much of the belt to wrap around the pulley as you can to help with slippage. That means if your going to go with a rear mounted unit, your going to want an idler pulley between the alternator and the superchargers pulley.

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:48 pm

HOTRODACR wrote: I dont think that would be a good idea. The belt would have nothing keeping it from shifting over. Once it moved it would throw the belt.

Hahaha, once you tension the belt it's going nowhere. If a 4k belt is shifting 2ribs over on a 6k pulley while running, you've got some serious issues

It'll be perfectly fine.

As long as you have between 150 and 180 degrees of belt wrap on the blower pulley you'll be fine. Obviously more is better, but that won't always happen. Adding idlers increases the strain on the belt, and decreases the torque it can transfer. Ideally the setup should be that there are 0 idlers. I wouldn't go more than one idler, and I would make that one idler an automatic tensioner just like on the AC/PS belt.

Matt

HOTRODACR · Post by **HOTRODACR** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:29 pm

Belts can and will stretch and the little grooves will do nothing to hold it in place.

The supercharger pulley will be almost right above the alternator pulley so there wont be a lot of wrap. Also, you need another idler because the belt cannot go from the supercharger back to the crank pulley. The cast aluminum accesory plate is in the way. You need to bring the belt down closer to the alternator before it heads back to the crank.
Here is a rough idea of how things could be routed. You would need to play around with idlers so you can get as much coverage around the alt so it doesnt slip.

I think relocating/deleting the p/s would make things a lot easier.
Ill look around the net and see if I can find some sort of electric pump.

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:15 pm

HOTRODACR wrote:Belts can and will stretch and the little grooves will do nothing to hold it in place.

That's why we use automatic tensioners, to take up the slack created by any deflection under heavy load

I see what you're getting at with the belt routing. I was going to go a little differently than that, but may be going entirely different all together now (still haven't played around with this since the last time

). But look at the angle of wrap on the alternator. You need to keep a minimum 120 deg wrap angle on that or else it will start slipping as well.

Matt

HOTRODACR · Post by **HOTRODACR** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:50 pm

fixitmattman wrote:
HOTRODACR wrote:Belts can and will stretch and the little grooves will do nothing to hold it in place.
That's why we use automatic tensioners, to take up the slack created by any deflection under heavy load

I see what you're getting at with the belt routing. I was going to go a little differently than that, but may be going entirely different all together now (still haven't played around with this since the last time ). But look at the angle of wrap on the alternator. You need to keep a minimum 120 deg wrap angle on that or else it will start slipping as well.

Matt

It would be as easy as moving the idler down. If you think adding an auto-tensioner would be easier than finding a 4 rib pulley........

I keep looking at my car to see how stuff could be mounted/routed.

I would mount the s/c up front. You would either need to delete p/s or relocate the pump over the alternator.

On another note. I was looking around for an electric pump. All the info I have found makes it seem like its way more complex than I thought. OEM systems use all sorts of sensors to make it work.

Another thing to think about. Superchargers and turbochargers have their pros and cons. Superchargers pros are usually listed as;
low end power. They make a smaller engine feel like a larger one.
Good if you have a low revving motor.

I have to say, with the small size of the srt turbo, It will pretty much accomplish all of that. Plus you will get the benefits of a turbo.

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:32 pm

Everybody and their brother has an SRT turbo'd neon now. How many are supercharged. It's not about making as much power as you can. If it was about making power, I wouldn't have even bought a neon. We all know the pro's and con's of turbo's and supers. It's about being different

How many supercharged neons can you list?

Matt

HOTRODACR · Post by **HOTRODACR** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:27 pm

Thats an odd reason do to something. I mod my car for me. How many srt turbo 2nd gens are out there? A handfull maybe?

How many diesel Neons can you list? None! because why would you bother.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:33 am

turbo diesel power....mmmm
right now its cheaper than gas...

*****edit any updates or pics yet lonewolf?***********