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teamliviD
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Lets talk tuning!

Post by teamliviD » Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:55 pm

Before I get started, here is a list of my fuel and ignition system:

Fuel System:
HahnRaceCraft Port Fueler w/40lb Accel Injectors
21lb Accel Performance Injectors (used under normal driving)
Aeromotive 1:1 Fuel Pressure Regulator
Walborw 255lb Fuel Pump
Spoolboy Fuel Mod

Ignition System:
Crane Ignition w/Trigger
Crane TC-2 Timing Retard
Crane MAP Sensor
Crane 8.5mm Spark Plug Wires]
Auto Meter Tach Adapter

A/F Ratio Gauge:
AEM UGEO Wideband Air/Fuel Ratio Gauge

So there’s both of my set ups.

First let’s talk about the Port Fueler.

The Port Fueler is designed to add 1psi of fuel to every 1psi of boost using the Aeromotive 1:1 Fuel Pressure Regulator and the 4 additional injectors. It’s a pretty simple set up that allows the car to drive normal while not under boost and easily adds fuel when under boost.

The Port Fueler can be sold with different injectors and maps uploaded on the controller. I chose the 40lb injectors set up due to the amount of psi and turbo I planned on running. I also upgraded to 21lb injector for normal driving mode just to be safe.

The Aeromotive 1:1 Fuel Pressure Regulator works quite easily as well. Turn the alen key adjuster to the right adds more fuel and turning it left takes away fuel. Simple.

The install of the whole set up is also easy. No big questions.

I’ve also upgraded to a Spoolboy moded fuel canister with a Walborw 255lb Fuel Pump. The Port Fueler does not need a return line but it doesn’t hurt to have one either. -6an fuel lines run from the fuel tank though the fuel rails and back to the tank. I still need to add an in line fuel filter.

Any questions??

Now for the Ignition System.

I chose all Crane products for my set up. After seeing how Crane and MSD units were built, the MSD looked like it was put together by a 5 year old and the Crane looked much better and had a very thick gel coating over the electronics. With the Crane system I am able to adjust rev limit and timing retard by psi of boost. I'll also have a hotter more accurate spark.

BRR has posted a diagram showing how to correctly install the Crane system in your neon. I was lost with out it. Thanks BRR!!

http://forum.2gn.org/viewtopic.php?t=21 ... e+ignition

Any questions?

Air/Fuel Ratio's

This is one of the most important things when tuning any car. To much fuel equals sputter and will spit extra fuel into the exhaust most likely causing high EGTs and not enough fuel equals "BOOM". For a N/A car you want to stay as close to 14.7:1 A/F and around 13.2:1 at WOT. For a Boosted car you want to stay between 11.1:1-12:1.1A/F while under boost depending on the level of boost, compression ratio, timing, and other factors. Both N/A and Boosted cars should cruise at a 14.7:1 A/F ratio for a complete burn. Achieving this is pretty easy as long as you have a wideband A/F gauge and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. I'm using the AEM UGEO Wideband Air/Fuel Ratio Gauge but here are others out there. It's easily located inside the car and very easy to read. This gauge reads as low as 10.1:1 A/F to as high as 18.1:1 A/F.

Tuning

Now that the fuel and ignition systems are all in place it's time for tuning. This can be done two different ways, on the road or on a dyno. A dyno will net you more power and the road will get you driving. When your tuning with an adjustable fuel pressure regulator you first want to set the base/idle pressure. For the Neon its between 48-56psi. Once that’s done, go for a slow and smooth drive around the block. While driving you want to keep your eye on the A/F and Fuel pressure gauges. You're looking to see if the A/F is where it needs to be under "normal" driving, no boost. If the A/F is higher then 14.7 you need to pull fuel, if its less you need to add fuel. Next, stop and check for leaks. If everything looks ok and your A/F is where you want it its time to go into boost. Again, drive around the block but this time under boost. Once under boost the A/F should drop to 11.9 and then go back to 14.7 once out of boost. Stop and if adjustments need to be made now would be the time.

TIP:
The more fuel you add (RICH) the lower the A/F will be, the more fuel you take away (LEAN) the higher the A/F will be.

It might take a few trips around the block to get your A/F where you want it. This is where a dyno comes in handy. The dyno allows to fine tune your A/F for max horse power.

Timing Retard under Boost

With my Crane system I opted for the Timing Retard and Map. This will allow me to pull timing on the fly. I can pull up to 20* of timing per 1psi of boost. With me owning an R/T, it comes from the factory with a few degrees advanced timing. Advance timing + Boost = BOOM.

(This is where I could use some input. I'm not to sure how much advance timing the R/T has so I'm not to sure how much to pull while under boost.)

Tuning can be fairly easy as long as you know what to look for. I hope this helps anyone that wasn't sure how to do it or how this particular system works.

If there is anything that is wrong or that I need to add please let me know.
Last edited by teamliviD on Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:01 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by jckevns » Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:08 pm

how much did the portfueler system cost you (if you bought new from Hahn). I've read it costs 1200 or so but I looked on Hahns price list and added up all the components and it was about 900-1000. This is what I plan on using to run my fuel system once I go turbo and just trying to get an idea of how much money i'll need
thanks

edit: nice write up by the way :thumbup:
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teamliviD
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Post by teamliviD » Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:36 pm

I believe I paid $1250 for the kit. MS is cheaper but alot more work.
Joe
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Post by esteinmaier » Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:57 pm

I haven't gone too far into it, but too much fuel won't cause a ping. It will just sputter and spit extra fuel into the exhaust, most likely causing high EGTs. Detonation happens during a lean condition, and I've seen it described as knock or ping. You might want to re-word that if you're trying to get it stickied.
ASP - First NGC SOHC in the 13s and the 12s. First SOHC neon over 500whp. First NGC Neon on MS.
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Post by teamliviD » Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:04 pm

EDITED

thanks!! does it look ok?
Joe
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Post by esteinmaier » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:35 pm

teamliviD wrote:EDITED

thanks!! does it look ok?
I'd edit it to read that either n/a or turbo, it should cruise at a 14.7:1 A/F ratio for a complete burn.

Turbo, under boost should be between 11:1 and 12:1 depending on the level of boost, compression ratio, timing, and other factors. And most n/a builds will do best at around 13.2:1 at WOT.
ASP - First NGC SOHC in the 13s and the 12s. First SOHC neon over 500whp. First NGC Neon on MS.
Winston Churchill wrote:Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.

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Post by teamliviD » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:43 am

EDITED

Thanks again esteinmaier!!
Joe
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Post by kc2005ptgt » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:54 pm

I would sticky this, for easy reference for others, but I can not for some reason :lol: Good info! :D
SOLD 5/13- 2005 Chrysler PT Cruiser GT Convertible | 2.4L Turbo HO | Bright Silver Metallic
SOLD 7/09- 2002 Dodge Neon ACR | Flame Red
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Post by Cbussilver01es » Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:19 pm

+1 on the sticky
This will help a lot of ppl understand a lot better. :thumbup:
Excellent job!
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Post by teamliviD » Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:25 pm

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Post by esteinmaier » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:17 pm

I'm going to add a little here. If you feel like I'm stepping on your toes, let me know and I'll erase the post.

Tuning an engine is a difficult balance between squeezing the most power possible out of it and keeping it safe. The problem is that for the most part, the same variables that cause an engine to make more power are the ones that lead to detonation and ultimately the destruction of an expensive and labor-intensive project.

Air/Fuel Ratio:
Air to fuel ratio is a fairly easy factor to tune. Ballpark is usually good enough unless you're really tuning to the edge. Perfect burn is found at 14.7:1 A/F ratio with gasoline. That means that all fuel injected into the combustion chamber is burned, as well as all the oxygen allowing it to burn.
Tuning for economy will usually work a little better at cruise by leaning out the mixture. Every motor is different, but a SOHC neon motor seems to still run pretty smooth around 16.5:1. Now, keep in mind that you only want to go to leaner than stoich (14.7:1) at cruising throttle. It becomes dangerous at higher throttle positions, and makes for a really rough idle.
Tuning WOT (Wide Open Throttle) is where you need to go richer than stoich. An engine will make more power with slightly more fuel than stoich, and the richer a mixture is, the less prone to detonation it is. The point where a naturally aspirated motor makes the most power but still is plenty resistant to detonation is in the low 13s. Most people do best around 13.2:1. A turbo motor is a teeter totter act even more, so most people aim for the 11s. Scientifically, a forced induction motor can make the most power without detonation at around 11.8:1. Any richer, and the extra fuel gets in the way of making more power, and any leaner, and you have to give up other factors.
Richer mixtures ward off detonation by creating a mixture that is less ignitable. The action of compressing air makes it hotter, thus the need for an intercooler. Imagine a turbo pumping 30psi into a motor is compressing it about 3 times the normal amount of air that it would have received naturally. That can get over 200 degrees without adequate cooling. Now note that a stock Neon motor is compressing the air again 9.8X. It's entirely possible that the mixture blows up before intended without some precautions taken, such as making the air/fuel mixture richer so it's harder to ignite without help from a spark plug.

Timing Advance:
Timing advance is how soon before the piston reaches it's top position the spark plug fires and ignites the fuel and air mixture. I won't get into specifics with numbers, as different setups require very different timing.
Now pretend the spark always ignites at 0 spark advance. That means the combustion begins at the beginning of the power stroke. The laws of physics lead us to believe that an explosion in an enclosed space will begin small and grow larger until it begins to run out of fuel or air to burn and die down. That means that depending on RPM, the piston may be almost at the bottom of it's stroke before the largest part of the explosion happens. Not only does this dramatically decrease the power output of the motor, but it also allows the explosion to happen on it's way out of the motor instead of inside it. That tends to melt, char, crack, and warp all kinds of things that just weren't meant to see temperatures that high.
Now let's advance that 30 degrees. The explosion is beginning before the mixture has had a chance to completely compress, but the biggest part of the explosion is happening when the piston is moving downward, and is almost entirely extinguished by the time the valve opens to let the spent mixture out through the exhaust system. Seems like this is going to give us more power than igniting the fuel at 0, right?
Now take that to the extreme, and let's advance timing 60 degrees. The explosion is now at it's peak while the piston is still climbing instead of falling. Not only is this counterproductive, fighting the motion of the piston rising and falling, but it is also putting enormous stress on the moving parts, requiring them to work many times as hard as is they were intended. High cylinder pressures are a symptom of this problem. The worst symptom is a rod laying in your oil pan.
An EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature) probe and matching gauge are very valuable tools for determining proper timing advance, since a very high reading on an EGT gauge usually indicates that the ignition event is happening too late, and the explosion is still happening when the mixture is in the exhaust. If you hear your motor pinging, and generally sounding like the neighbor kid accidentally forgot his marble collection in your engine, you probably have the timing advanced too far. Be sure to only use an EGT reading if you're getting good readings on your air/fuel ratio, as running too rich can also create a high EGT reading.
A stock neon has a timing map in it's ECU that designates that at certain RPM and air pressure right before it enters the engine, a certain timing setting is to be used. This allows the spark to be at a great position given the conditions, providing good power and good economy, without damaging the motor. Changing the configuration from stock may require different timing advance than stock for optimal performance. We'll get into that more a little later.

Fuel:
Remember a few moments ago when we were discussing the air/fuel ratios, and why a lean condition has a tendency to promote detonation? Well here's where the fuel we buy has a bearing.
The octane rating of fuel is it's rating to resist pre-ignition. That means it doesn't blow up before it's supposed to as easily. It also lights a little bit slower because of that fact, but still has the same size explosion once it's fully ignited.
You'll notice that as a general rule, high performance cars require premium gasoline, while economy cars do not. The reason is that because of their tune from the factory, they are designed to work wonderfully with higher octane fuel, but would detonate under the same conditions with lower octane fuel.
Racing fuel at your local gas station is usually around 100 octane. That's huge for resisting detonation under extreme conditions, and allows tons more timing advance, more boost, higher compression pistons, or all kinds of other tricks we use to make more power. Look hard, and you can probably find some 110 or 116 octane fuel. Now you won't find any production cars that have "Racing fuel 110 octane or higher required" on the inside of the gas cap cover, but you'll find a lot of professional race cars would just blow themselves to pieces on anything less.
I won't go too in depth with alternate fuels, but you also have e85 (85% ethanol), methanol, etc. Typically, alcohols require more volume to acheive stoich than gasoline, but are higher octane. A wideband o2 sensor gives a reading based on the oxygen content of the exhaust gasses, so to tune for a fuel such as e85, you would still tune for the same a/f ratio targets. The amount of fuel pumped into each combustion chamber would be greater, but would read the same amount of oxygen, thus reading the same on a wideband air/fuel ratio gauge as a proper gasoline mixture.

Forced Induction:
Forced induction, by definition, is the process of forcing more air into an engine than it could normally draw, thus allowing more fuel to burn, making the engine make more power.
The two common types of forced induction are turbocharging and supercharging. Both force more air in by compressing it before it enters the motor. More fuel and more air is the recipe for power, but it also comes with the disadvantage that while the engine is further compressing the air/fuel mixture, it is that much more ignitable, thus requiring more care in tuning. It is in these types of situations that extreme changes must be made to keep a motor together, such as racing fuel, very rich air/fuel mixtures, timing retard (Making spark events happen later) and intercooling to keep the air from being too hot before it goes into the engine.
Nitrous oxide (NO2) rapidly cools the air before it goes into the motor, making it violently contract so that more air molecules exist per cubic unit. Basically, it's doing the same thing as a supercharger or turbocharger, but doing it chemically instead of physically. The same rules apply, however, it's more difficult to tune the amount of nitrous in a linear fashion with RPM and other factors, although it's easier to keep from detonating, simply because heat is a major factor in pre-ignition. That's why so many naturally aspirated neons use NO2 to piggyback on some more power. It's a lot easier to make nitrous work on a motor built for no power adder than a turbo.

Engine construction:
Every type of engine is different, but since we're talking neons here, I'll try to make it specific. Stock, most neon motors are built around a 9.8:1 compression ratio. In short, that means that when a piston is at it's bottom point, and it is full of the most air that it can hold, it will compress that air to 1 9.8th of it's original size. The more compressed a mixture of air and fuel is, the more flammable it is, and the more violent the explosion once it ignites.
A common upgrade for a naturally aspirated neon is to install pistons with a higher compression ratio, thus making the air and fuel that the engine inhales that much more ignitable. Smart idea, right?
Well, a common upgrade for a forced induction neon is to do the opposite, and lower the compression to something like 8.6:1. This does NOT make the engine more powerful. In fact, it makes it less powerful. It does, however, make it much easier to tune the air/fuel ratio, the timing, and the required fuel octane without worrying about pre-ignition. With turbos, it can be a very difficult task to keep them under control while using only what is easily found at your local gas station for fuel. The gas station on the corner does not sell nitromethane, even if you ask very politely, so some sacrifices must be made. Of course, the boost pressure made by the turbo could just be turned down to match the engine, but what fun is that?

Tuning techniques:
There are a few different ways we use to tune a neon. The most rudimentary would be the ever-so-popular Mopar Performance computer. It advances the timing just enough to require the use of higher octane fuel, and increases rev limiter points as well as speed limiter points. Drop one in, and you have advanced your timing.
An S-AFC is also a popular device. This works by intercepting the signals that the stock computer sees for the manifold pressure, and sending along modified signals. If you're having trouble with your n/a neon running leaner than you want at wide open throttle, or idling rough because you added a mighty huge camshaft, this might be your answer.
A RRFPR (Rising Rate Fuel Pressure Regulator) is hugely popular for forced induction because it's very easy to operate and not very expensive. It raises the fuel pressure to the fuel injectors once you are making boost, forcing the system to dump more fuel in to reach your a/f ratio goals. Keep in mind that it doesn't change how long the fuel injectors are open, just how much fuel shoots from it when it is open.
An MSD box allows for forced induction motors to retard timing dependant on boost pressures. Combined with a RRFPR, some very fast and reliable cars have been built with this tool.
A standalone engine management computer is really the cat's meow. Complete control over both the fuel and spark, and it has a ton of other features in it saving you money on countless other parts like boost controllers, 2-step controllers, and gauges, for example. The most popular of these for the neon is the MegaSquirt, but AEM makes a good one for only 7 or 8 times the price.

OK, I've just written a damn novel. When I started typing this like 2 hours ago, I just wanted to touch on a few subjects, and then I felt like I was speaking jibberish unless I explained myself. Shizz, I just wasted a lot of time.
ASP - First NGC SOHC in the 13s and the 12s. First SOHC neon over 500whp. First NGC Neon on MS.
Winston Churchill wrote:Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.

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Post by teamliviD » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:38 am

Thanks for the more indepth info. I'm not an expert...at all, I just thought I would get my thoughts on paper in lamest terms to an idiot to understand...like me lol!! Thanks again!
Joe
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Post by glasswars » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:44 pm

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