52mm TB, More then enough.

Have a question about how to make horsepower going the all motor route, here's where to ask it.
User avatar
TN.Frank
2GN Member
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:11 pm
Location: Crossville, TN., U.S.A.
Contact:

52mm TB, More then enough.

Post by TN.Frank » Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:04 am

Using the formula ((Max RPM/2)*Displacement)/1728 to calculate TB cfm and adding 10% for 6200 rpm I get just over 240 cfm needed for my engine. Now, looking at the table from Allpar you can see that I've got more then enough TB for my app.
49mm TB flows 252 cfm
52mm TB flows 283 cfm
55mm TB flows 317 cfm
60mm TB flows 377 cfm
You can plug in your rpm to see just how much TB you'll need.

P.S.
52mm TB is good to 7200 rpm easy. :thumbup:
?You know what the difference between me and you really is? You look out there and see a horde of evil, brain eating zombies. I look out there and see a target rich environment.?
-Dillis D. Freeman Jr. 11/2/2001

User avatar
kevo
2GN Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:00 am

Post by kevo » Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:35 am

the neon TB is not a true 52mm. It's 52 at the plate.

User avatar
TN.Frank
2GN Member
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:11 pm
Location: Crossville, TN., U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by TN.Frank » Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:52 am

kevo wrote:the neon TB is not a true 52mm. It's 52 at the plate.
So does it get smaller on the bellows tube side or what? I thought it was 52mm straight thru with no venturia and that's why we get that 2K studder.
?You know what the difference between me and you really is? You look out there and see a horde of evil, brain eating zombies. I look out there and see a target rich environment.?
-Dillis D. Freeman Jr. 11/2/2001

Jerome Adams
2GN Member
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:07 pm
Location: Bellevue, NE

Post by Jerome Adams » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:26 am

pretty sure it has a venturi...plus the plate over-opens at WOT...instead of being at 90 degrees it is more like 120 degrees (restricting flow). I really like my MPx 60mm. If you find a deal on a used one, I would jump on it. I got tired of chasing used and bought it new from Modern and haven't regretted it one bit.
Jerome

'03 SXT...DODGE NEON CONES

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #067

asanti
2GN Member
Posts: 1548
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:52 pm
Location: Waterbury CT

Post by asanti » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:08 pm

OK so if my redline's 7800 rpm (AF/X-R pcm) what's the cfm come out to? Just curious even though I have the 60mm TB already :D

Later
Allex
Official "I drove my Neon till it died" member #??? Parted out the '01 so that she can live on through others! (Now driving + modding my '09 Chevy HHR SS!)
Image
Mat00ES wrote:Find me a buyer and I'll sell some body parts for car parts.

User avatar
TN.Frank
2GN Member
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:11 pm
Location: Crossville, TN., U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by TN.Frank » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:45 pm

asanti wrote:OK so if my redline's 7800 rpm (AF/X-R pcm) what's the cfm come out to? Just curious even though I have the 60mm TB already :D

Later
Allex
302cfm and that's counting the added 10% so a 55mm TB would give you more then enough flow. :thumbup:

I'll need to check and see just how much the TB does open at WOT, if it's opening more then 90 deg then I'll need to make a throttle stop of somekind to limit it to 90.
?You know what the difference between me and you really is? You look out there and see a horde of evil, brain eating zombies. I look out there and see a target rich environment.?
-Dillis D. Freeman Jr. 11/2/2001

Wenuden
2GN Member
Posts: 2554
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:53 pm
Location: Alexandria, Va

Post by Wenuden » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:13 pm

if you do that, your computer might not use the proper fuel map for wot, might cause you to go lean when driving full out for extended periods of time. Just a thought.
Image

User avatar
TN.Frank
2GN Member
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:11 pm
Location: Crossville, TN., U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by TN.Frank » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:50 pm

Didn't think about that. The TPS does need to be fully open to sense WOT. I wonder if I could set the butterfly to 90 then re-clock the TPS so it'd be at WOT with the butterfly at 90. I guess I need to get a used TB from a J-Yard to play around with.
?You know what the difference between me and you really is? You look out there and see a horde of evil, brain eating zombies. I look out there and see a target rich environment.?
-Dillis D. Freeman Jr. 11/2/2001

User avatar
BlackRoseRacing
2009 Platinum Contributor
Posts: 12729
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 8:58 am
Location: WNY

Post by BlackRoseRacing » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:27 am

If that formula is correct, my 65mm TB is just a tad large for my motor :lol:
Image
Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #666
(she officially died in 2018 by being donated to a church...seriously)

occasional demons
Junior Admin
Posts: 19530
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: Ashland Ohio

Post by occasional demons » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:15 am

BlackRoseRacing wrote:If that formula is correct, my 65mm TB is just a tad large for my motor :lol:
I know mine is too much. It just makes it more of a challenge to keep from going full open. Just got to back out till the power comes on. It's like reverse throttle response: the less you give it the harder it pulls. :twisted:

I'm not sold on the past 90* thing. I don't recall my stock TB going over center. Have to give it a look tomorrow, there should be a stop built in to prevent that from the factory.
Bill
dblsg wrote:ya'll a bunch of post whores
Seriously people, this is 2019 not 1920.
2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
Help support 2GN!

Kelevra
2GN Member
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 2:31 pm

Post by Kelevra » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:09 pm

Bought a 60mm for 135 shipped. you missed a great deal! lol

Jerome Adams
2GN Member
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:07 pm
Location: Bellevue, NE

Post by Jerome Adams » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:25 pm

occasional demons wrote: I'm not sold on the past 90* thing. I don't recall my stock TB going over center. Have to give it a look tomorrow, there should be a stop built in to prevent that from the factory.
http://forum.2gn.org/viewtopic.php?t=757&start=60

scroll down to OverDrive418's post...he said the same thing (before I said it) and I only reiterated when I swapped mine out and checked it for myself. This was after the throttle body was off the vehicle so I am not sure if there was something on the bracket that prevented it from going past 90, but not on the throttle body itself. (he has an 02 se and mine is a 03 sxt) might be diff on your vehicle. I can try and find my old tb (we just moved and it is in a box in the garage somewhere) and post a pic.

Check your TB though and let me know, it might not be the same?
Jerome

'03 SXT...DODGE NEON CONES

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #067

racer12306
Junior Admin
Posts: 16015
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:53 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:

Post by racer12306 » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:34 pm

TN.Frank wrote:
I'll need to check and see just how much the TB does open at WOT, if it's opening more then 90 deg then I'll need to make a throttle stop of somekind to limit it to 90.
talk about splitting hairs. it can't limit it that much if at all.
-Frank
Member of Spork Racing
Forum issues: racer12306@2gn.org
Forum Behavior
Support your favorite forum, DONATE!

Jerome Adams
2GN Member
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:07 pm
Location: Bellevue, NE

Post by Jerome Adams » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:02 pm

racer12306 wrote:
TN.Frank wrote:
I'll need to check and see just how much the TB does open at WOT, if it's opening more then 90 deg then I'll need to make a throttle stop of somekind to limit it to 90.
talk about splitting hairs. it can't limit it that much if at all.
Just get a 60mm and be happy :rockon:
Jerome

'03 SXT...DODGE NEON CONES

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #067

racer12306
Junior Admin
Posts: 16015
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:53 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:

Post by racer12306 » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:09 pm

and pray it doesn't throw a code.
-Frank
Member of Spork Racing
Forum issues: racer12306@2gn.org
Forum Behavior
Support your favorite forum, DONATE!

User avatar
TN.Frank
2GN Member
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:11 pm
Location: Crossville, TN., U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by TN.Frank » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:48 pm

racer12306 wrote:and pray it doesn't throw a code.
:withstupid:
For the rpm that I'll be running the stock 52mm will work just fine, I can spend my money on a cam or header so what I do have will breath a bit better. TB wise, I've got plenty even if it is plastic.
?You know what the difference between me and you really is? You look out there and see a horde of evil, brain eating zombies. I look out there and see a target rich environment.?
-Dillis D. Freeman Jr. 11/2/2001

User avatar
kevo
2GN Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:00 am

Post by kevo » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:22 pm

TN.Frank wrote:
racer12306 wrote:and pray it doesn't throw a code.
:withstupid:
For the rpm that I'll be running the stock 52mm will work just fine, I can spend my money on a cam or header so what I do have will breath a bit better. TB wise, I've got plenty even if it is plastic.
as i stated earlier in one of my posts. the stock throttle body pales in comparison to an aftermarket. It may not give you added horses but it does improve the throttle response greatly.


TN.Frank, i posted a while back that if you have not tried a 60mm throttle body then you should. There is always a chance that it will work with your car and you will never know unless you try it out yourself. If it doesn't work you can always sell it and make your money back.

Jerome Adams
2GN Member
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:07 pm
Location: Bellevue, NE

Post by Jerome Adams » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:00 pm

Jerome

'03 SXT...DODGE NEON CONES

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #067

anomalous0
2GN Member
Posts: 457
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:23 pm
Location: Arizona

Post by anomalous0 » Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:57 am

Stock TB has a very pronounced venturi.
Food for thought: perhaps the reason people haven't had much improvement with the 60mm TBs is because the inlet to the intake manifold is still 52mm? a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link
"If you haven't bled on it, it's not your car"

User avatar
BlackRoseRacing
2009 Platinum Contributor
Posts: 12729
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 8:58 am
Location: WNY

Post by BlackRoseRacing » Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:54 am

anomalous0 wrote:Stock TB has a very pronounced venturi.
Food for thought: perhaps the reason people haven't had much improvement with the 60mm TBs is because the inlet to the intake manifold is still 52mm? a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link
^^^
Bingo
Image
Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #666
(she officially died in 2018 by being donated to a church...seriously)

occasional demons
Junior Admin
Posts: 19530
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: Ashland Ohio

Post by occasional demons » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:57 am

BlackRoseRacing wrote:
anomalous0 wrote:Stock TB has a very pronounced venturi.
Food for thought: perhaps the reason people haven't had much improvement with the 60mm TBs is because the inlet to the intake manifold is still 52mm? a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link
^^^
Bingo
^^^ That's why I made the ghetto intake: 3" inlet. the intake w/52mm didn't make any signifigant gain, but w/65mm definitly butt dyno results, as long as the throttle position is in proportion to the rpm range. If it's at WOT in 5ft gear @ 35 mph yes it bogs, but then so does the 52mm. The 65mm just vibrates the floorpan more. :twisted:
Bill
dblsg wrote:ya'll a bunch of post whores
Seriously people, this is 2019 not 1920.
2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
Help support 2GN!

Jerome Adams
2GN Member
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:07 pm
Location: Bellevue, NE

Post by Jerome Adams » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:21 am

Somebody did a dyno with the 60mm and got like 3hp and 3ft lbs of torque. The intake mani is a weak link and it is on my "to do" list, but even with the stock intake mani, I haven't been disappointed with my 60mm TB
Jerome

'03 SXT...DODGE NEON CONES

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #067

User avatar
kevo
2GN Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:00 am

Post by kevo » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:09 am

Jerome Adams wrote:2005 and 60mm TB FTL :cussing:

http://forum.2GN.org/viewtopic.php?t=30587
happends to some 2003 and 2004 too. It's just a matter of trying it out to find out.

Jerome Adams
2GN Member
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:07 pm
Location: Bellevue, NE

Post by Jerome Adams » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:02 pm

I have heard of the 03 R/T going into "limp mode" and there seems to fitment issues with the 05 IIRC...
Jerome

'03 SXT...DODGE NEON CONES

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #067

User avatar
kevo
2GN Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:00 am

Post by kevo » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:12 pm

Jerome Adams wrote:I have heard of the 03 R/T going into "limp mode" and there seems to fitment issues with the 05 IIRC...
there have been posts from 03-05 sxt and R/T neons if you search around. I have an 03 sxt and i too hit limp mode with a 60mm throttle body.

ZeroChad
2009 Gold Contributor
Posts: 3165
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:08 pm
Location: Austin, Tx
Contact:

Post by ZeroChad » Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:08 pm

Heres how much the fully opened plate impedes air flow. I consider it a substantial amount considering your working with limited flow to begin with.
Image
Note that the bottom of the plate has a "bump" on the back. When at WOT it seems to perfectly cover up the back of those screws. Maybe they wanted it designed this way?
Old Neon Log | Feedback

2000 - Corvette Coupe
2002 - Neon SE Fully Built (scrapped)

Wenuden
2GN Member
Posts: 2554
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:53 pm
Location: Alexandria, Va

Post by Wenuden » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:38 pm

ZeroChad wrote:Heres how much the fully opened plate impedes air flow. I consider it a substantial amount considering your working with limited flow to begin with.
Image
Note that the bottom of the plate has a "bump" on the back. When at WOT it seems to perfectly cover up the back of those screws. Maybe they wanted it designed this way?
I wouldn't consider that irrefutable proof that it opens too far at wot. Maybe if it were on the car and someone had the gas pedal down all the way and it still opened that far, I would.

ZeroChad
2009 Gold Contributor
Posts: 3165
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:08 pm
Location: Austin, Tx
Contact:

Post by ZeroChad » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:36 pm

Wenuden wrote: I wouldn't consider that irrefutable proof that it opens too far at wot. Maybe if it were on the car and someone had the gas pedal down all the way and it still opened that far, I would.
True. it really depends on how much action the throttle cable allows.
Old Neon Log | Feedback

2000 - Corvette Coupe
2002 - Neon SE Fully Built (scrapped)

User avatar
kevo
2GN Member
Posts: 1282
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:00 am

Post by kevo » Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:38 pm

is that with the throttle cable bracket on? In case you don't know, the bracket also has a throttle stop.

ZeroChad
2009 Gold Contributor
Posts: 3165
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:08 pm
Location: Austin, Tx
Contact:

Post by ZeroChad » Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:59 pm

Nope the bracket is on my 60mm.
Old Neon Log | Feedback

2000 - Corvette Coupe
2002 - Neon SE Fully Built (scrapped)

Post Reply

Return to “Naturally Aspirated”