Thinking out loud about an 02 magnum build.

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D-Railed_Neon
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Thinking out loud about an 02 magnum build.

Post by D-Railed_Neon » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:57 pm

Please be patient with me, I'm sure everyone has a different way of going about this but, I have put a lot of thought and a lot of research into it and I need input from folks out there more knowledgeable than my self. I am building the car for DD and AutoX fun and thats it. I have been researching for so long that I can't take it anymore! :owned: I ask personal opinions FROM EXPERIENCE on my build plan. I hate to force it upon you all but I greatly appreciate the advise. BEAR WITH ME FOLKS! lol

Build Plan
2.0 Sohc Magnum
02 stock es bottom end.
00-02 Magnum head (port to IM and EM-polished then milled .010)
Crane Valve springs
Crane titanium retainers
Standard size Stainless Valves (appropriate keepers i.e 1/3 groove)
Crane cam 12 (No, I don't want a 200/400 comp)
Adjustable Cam gear ( AEM, fidanza?)
Gates Racing Water pump
Unorthodox Under drive pulley (includes Dayco belts)
PT Cruiser Alternator (with original neon pulley)
Magnum Intake (ported to head, control harlan switch-already have )
Gates Racing Timing belt
All appropriate gaskets and seals
Granetelli Coil
Granetelli Wires (got a blue and black thing goin already lol)
remove Cruise Control
AEM windeband a/f Gauge
AEM Voltage gauge
AEM Oil Pressure gauge
transmission swap (3.55 to 3.94)
Sebring R/t 2.7 modular clutch (comes with appropriate TOB)
Modern Performance mid length magnum exhaust header
stainless custom pipe 2.5"
Flowmaster 2.5" high flow catalytic converter
Stainless custom pipe 2.5"
Vibrant Oxygen Sensor Defouler
02 sensor rewire (extended)
Borla can style muffler in line 2.5" after cat
SRT-4 Axle back

STOCK ECU
STOCK INJECTORS

Ok what else,...I already have a maddog STS 52-1, boogers, jm cradle bushings. And will be doing suspension in the next month to bc coilovers, new control arms, and eibach srt sway kit. Car already has new motor mounts that I filled.




The goal of this build is to have low end grunt with high end flow. while keeping it on stock ecu with as few CELs as possible. I have always wanted a UDP but read that these 02s get a little pissy about them due to lack in voltage from our rather weak stock alternators. A lot of people use the ODP from lorenzo to fix that problem. The PT alternator bolts right up to our cars and pushes much more amps and slightly higher voltage as well. That was done with a stock PT pulley which is slightly larger than our neon pulley. I believe that by switching back to the neon pulley on the PT alternator The voltage and amps should be fine according to the ecu even with the aggressive UDP. What do you guys think about that?

Secondly. The exhaust was planned for this low end power and high end flow. Of course it has to look and sound good as well. That is where the srt axle back and borla come in play. My question I ques would be, to keep some low end pressure but free it all up in the high end, would 2.5" be too large? Would anyone recommend 2.25"? I don'nt know guys. Obviously with a high flow cat I will need relocate the second 02 sensor, I' can just use the defouler kit to keep the ecu's emissions system checks happy enough, right?

with all of this will I get with a proper tune, the balanced, quick response I am trying so hard to build. or at least, close to it....ish :tardbang:



I appreciate any and all input guys, Thanks for your time :rockon:
Last edited by D-Railed_Neon on Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thinking out loud about an 02 magnum build. NOVEL Warnin

Post by wickedgood4684 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:37 pm

Why not get some DOHC pistons to bump the compression.
Grantelli Coil and wires are not a performance mod, if your stock coil and wires are functioning fine, save yourself some $ and skip the Granatelli's.
If you want to stay in then Crane 12 range, get a 01 magnum cam and save yourself even more money. The 01 mag cam is pretty close to the crane 12.
The AEM gauges, if you have them then use them if not I would skip them. Your motor build isn't aggressive enough to need to have them.
For your exhaust, you want a good flow, "back pressure" is not needed in electronically fuel injected vehicles. What you want is exhaust gas velocity. You want to create a exhaust system them has good laminar flow and is able to evacuate the exhaust gases as fast as possible. Bigger is not always better. But a 2.5 should be fine.

Over all its not a bad build.
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Post by D-Railed_Neon » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:58 pm

Thank you sir. :rockon:

wires---simply have a blue black thing going with valve cover
Coil---stock one is at 134k. for 50 bucks, might as well, right?
Crane 12---slightly more than 01 r/t is where I want to be
Dohc pistons---absolutely!!! I will be doing this build in stages and bottom end will be done. I haven't planned everything for the bottom end yet but, I will be bumping compression......in due time
Gauges---One day the car will see an SRT fully built powerplant, and when that day comes I will need them, in the mean time if I could use em, why not get em early?
Exhaust---Good to go?

Thanks again for any input!
MY PROJECT LOG My Old 2002 ES AND My 2003 SXT

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Post by r/tguy02 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:12 pm

you wont need a defouler at all since you're puting a cat back on.
what do you have against the comp 400? that is a great cam choice for your build.
i'd skip on the crane springs/retainers, any cam smaller than a crane 14 can use the mag springs/retainers which are cheaper
and i think you meant to say gasket match the IM and EM :thumbup:
Justin
[02 R/T sold][00 Highline sold][04 r/t scrapped][95 NYG Sport coupe][01 r/t DD]
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Post by D-Railed_Neon » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:30 pm

r/tguy02 wrote:you wont need a defouler at all since you're puting a cat back on.
what do you have against the comp 400? that is a great cam choice for your build.
i'd skip on the crane springs/retainers, any cam smaller than a crane 14 can use the mag springs/retainers which are cheaper
and i think you meant to say gasket match the IM and EM :thumbup:
I read some people still had emission system CELs by just placing the second 02 behind the cat in http://www.modernperformance.com/produc ... verter/503 I guess I may pick up the defouler and put the bung in, if i don't need it then will probably sell or hold on to it.

As far as the comp 400 I know it will work beautifully with this build and I haven't completely ruled it out but, I would like to know how it effects the power band. (How far up the rpm range does it move it?) I like low end torque and would like to raise it along with the top end. Will the 14s and 400 put me all the way to the higher range and jip my current low end?

Absolutely correct on the gasket matching. Thanks for the help gentlemen.
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Re: Thinking out loud about an 02 magnum build. NOVEL Warnin

Post by trojmn » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:44 pm

D-Railed_Neon wrote:I am building the car for DD and AutoX fun and thats it.
AutoX and all of that? start with the rule book and rtp pax and figure out what class you want to be in. Go slow with the mods or the autoX hook will be set in deep and you'll get serious and will be undoing "mods". i.e. the ones that dont actually work or put you with the guys that spend 3x more on dampers than your car is worth.

Good dual purpose DD/AutoX. basically make a r/t or in your case with an acr. and START here for STC class, in no particular order:

3.94 trans
magnum head/cam/ex
TIRES 225/45/15 15x7-7.5
urethane bushings all around
SEATS (SRTs will work OK)
ALIGNMENT. (learn this yourself)
hawk/ebc pads
whatever else maintenance items

With the increase spring rate/dampers on your mentioned BCs you wont have any idea what sway bars you want until you're able to thrash on it. you could very likely end up with the stock bar in front.

Tro
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Now building for GS ;-)

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D-Railed_Neon
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Re: Thinking out loud about an 02 magnum build. NOVEL Warnin

Post by D-Railed_Neon » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:16 pm

trojmn wrote:
D-Railed_Neon wrote:I am building the car for DD and AutoX fun and thats it.
AutoX and all of that? start with the rule book and rtp pax and figure out what class you want to be in. Go slow with the mods or the autoX hook will be set in deep and you'll get serious and will be undoing "mods". i.e. the ones that dont actually work or put you with the guys that spend 3x more on dampers than your car is worth.

Good dual purpose DD/AutoX. basically make a r/t or in your case with an acr. and START here for STC class, in no particular order:

3.94 trans
magnum head/cam/ex
TIRES 225/45/15 15x7-7.5
urethane bushings all around
SEATS (SRTs will work OK)
ALIGNMENT. (learn this yourself)
hawk/ebc pads
whatever else maintenance items

With the increase spring rate/dampers on your mentioned BCs you wont have any idea what sway bars you want until you're able to thrash on it. you could very likely end up with the stock bar in front.

Tro
Perfect! Thank you sir! So, perhaps rather than a 12 you would recommend say an 01 R/T cam? would the modern performance midlength be a bad idea opposed to the magnum stock exhaust manifold? What you said about the sway bars makes a whole lot of sense,thank you so much. I will get the BCs but will wait a couple of weeks to see how it feels before I buy sways. :rockon:
MY PROJECT LOG My Old 2002 ES AND My 2003 SXT

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Post by trojmn » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:06 pm

D-Railed_Neon wrote: Perfect! Thank you sir! So, perhaps rather than a 12 you would recommend say an 01 R/T cam? would the modern performance mid-length be a bad idea opposed to the magnum stock exhaust manifold? What you said about the sway bars makes a whole lot of sense,thank you so much. I will get the BCs but will wait a couple of weeks to see how it feels before I buy sways. :rockon:
well the MPx mid-length is at least STC legal. I would only consider it with the merge collector option.. even then is it REALLY worth $300 of improvement over say a $60 stock magnum manifold? Hard to say, but i wont lie and say i haven't wanted one. I haven't found a dyno graph proof saying one way or another.

whatever magnum cam will do...

If I were an autoX novice starting this year, and knowing what i know now I would build a H-stock car in ACR or R/T ~ish trim. stock front sway, adj aftermarket rear bar. learn on street tires, but you can run either H-stock or STC and do well in both.

BUT since the DD ride is so much better on c/o, id be in STC permanently as soon as budget allows.

edit I forget 2gn are in H stock. awesome .799 PAX also vs. .820 for STC

tro
03 SRT
Now building for GS ;-)

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Post by r/tguy02 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:51 am

the 400 will give an overall gain throughout the powerband and a substantial gain above 5k to redline. if you use an adjustable cam gear, you can play with the power band a little bit to get it where you need it for autox, granted that would require dyno time but it would def help getting the power where it matters most
Justin
[02 R/T sold][00 Highline sold][04 r/t scrapped][95 NYG Sport coupe][01 r/t DD]
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Post by nerox » Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:14 am

I have an '01 Magnum cam for sale:

viewtopic.php?t=61912&highlight=
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Post by D-Railed_Neon » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:14 pm

trojmn-
Street Prepared (SP)

Street Prepared cars are allowed significant modifications over stock, but many are still dual-purpose cars. Some of the permitted modifications are: any legal modification in stock; any springs that fit stock attachements; any sway bars; any wheels & DOT-approved tires; any induction for the engine (except that cars that were originally normally aspirated must remain normally aspirated); and any exhaust including headers. Compression ratio and camshafts in the engine must remain stock.

Street Touring (ST)

This is a new category of street cars modified more broadly than allowed by Street Prepared rules. It includes 4-seater sedans with specific displacement limits, aimed at cars modified using common suspension, engine, and appearance parts which are fully legal and compatible with street use anywhere in the country. Street Tires are required (DOT wear rating of 140 or better).
So, if I understand all that correctly in SP, I would have to start with the magnum cam (enter the car as an r/t or ACR trim) I could use my cold air intake, MPx magnum header, exhaust in the configuration stated initially, and the BC coil overs and just add the sways whenever I wanted to. after getting comfortable with the sport, I could swap the 01 cam to a 12 or more than likely with an adjustable cam gear, the comp 400, and run a more aggressive tune with safc. (not ready to jump into MS just yet)

r/tguy02-
That makes a hell of a lot more sense. So, the MPx is designed to shine in the low end and with the right cam gear and tuning facilities. (that wide band is starting to look pretty good now lol. ) I can tune the power band of the 400 (or any cam for that matter ) closer to the mid/high rpm range rather than just the top rpms?

Nerox-
Thanks so much for the offer, depending on what I find out here, I may have a large deal of interest in that cam :thumbup:

THANKS SO MUCH GUYS!!! :rockon:
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Post by trojmn » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:34 am

D-Railed_Neon wrote: So, if I understand all that correctly in SP, I would have to start with the magnum cam (enter the car as an r/t or ACR trim) I could use my cold air intake, MPx magnum header, exhaust in the configuration stated initially, and the BC coil overs and just add the sways whenever I wanted to. after getting comfortable with the sport, I could swap the 01 cam to a 12 or more than likely with an adjustable cam gear, the comp 400, and run a more aggressive tune with safc. (not ready to jump into MS just yet)
All of that but the 400 is OK for STC. Which has a better index.

http://home.comcast.net/~paxrtp/rtp2012.html

Tro
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Post by RobsProjectSOHC » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:41 am

To help you out with figuring out what cam you want to go with, I am going to try and dyno my car so I can give some results to the build/cam
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Post by D-Railed_Neon » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:32 am

RobsProjectSOHC-Yes sir that would help out immensely, :rockon: at this point I haven't ruled out that 12.

Nerox- This ain't over yet! lol

trojmn-Thank you sir, that is helpful. :thumbup: However, why would the 400 be out of the question for STC?

The reason I ask is I got together with Jerome Addams tonight and got a chance to drive his 03 NGC neon. He has a magnum head and intake manifold, comp 400, AEM cam gear, OBX longtube, BC coils on pretty close to full soft, and Hotchkis sways. viewtopic.php?t=30852 Overall, the power band on his build was as suspected all in 5000rpm+. The car does pull nicely through the full rpm range but does still seem slightly slower than my current almost bone stock 2.0 non mag. But after id say 4500, HOLY SHIT!!!

After talking with him for quite some time about his current auto X experience he agrees that perhaps that powerband is a bit high for most autox local tracks. but, we both seem to agree that there is still a little play left in the cam advance so whos to say I couldn't dial it back just a little further and keep some of my 02s low end burst.

Guys I really am torn here :banghead: Thank you so much for all the input guys. One way or another this is gonna happen but, it's gonna get done right the first time! In order for that to happen I need all the advice I can get.



btw jerome, sorry to just throw ya into this debate but, you should have known this was gonna happen after you let me drive that beast :thefinger: lol
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Post by r/tguy02 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:36 pm

D-Railed_Neon wrote: but, we both seem to agree that there is still a little play left in the cam advance so whos to say I couldn't dial it back just a little further and keep some of my 02s low end burst.
my thoughts on this exactly, by dialing it back you'll lose some on the top end but gain more where you need it down low.
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Post by trojmn » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:14 pm

D-Railed_Neon wrote:trojmn-Thank you sir, that is helpful. :thumbup: However, why would the 400 be out of the question for STC?
Aftermarket cams are not legal in ST classes. That was not a statement of performance ;-) you will not find legal engine modifications in the rule book under "14.10 ENGINE AND DRIVETRAIN"

ok that was the "official" answer.

now the fact is no one locally probably cares what you have done to your you neon or what class you're in... that is until you learn to drive and start winning. Then it’s time to get compliant in a hurry. I would think a big cam might be overt. As i suggested earlier, its easier to just start compliant if you really like to autoX.

Now if i where an unscrupulous competitor i would do several things differently.

tro
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Post by trojmn » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:28 am

D-Railed_Neon wrote: trojmn Overall, the power band on his build was as suspected all in 5000rpm+. The car does pull nicely through the full rpm range but does still seem slightly slower than my current almost bone stock 2.0 non mag. But after id say 4500, HOLY SHIT!!!
If your autox~ing for the most part is almost all 2nd gear. Generally speaking shifting is slow especially when you miss a gear and usually not needed unless your course has a 180 pivot cone. So if your starting out, dont shift. With that in mind, waiting for your meat and potatoes to come on at 4500 is almost as bad as hitting the rev limiter when it finaly does and your wishing for another 500rpm.

You need as much as you can get <6000 and magnum springs, ecu, or whatever it takes to be able to wind out to ~7200. That helps a ton with the in-between gear situations (again think less shifting).

IMO the cam still isn't needed but if you do, maybe adv that 400 a couple degrees like your buddy AND keep the plastic intake? from this thread below, i haven't been in a hurry to swap on my magnum intake yet. But it makes me wonder if anyone will notice a 1gn intake on my sxt...

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f ... 6&start=40
RPM '95 '00 Mag
3000 72 69 65
3500 82 81 80
4000 97 96 94
4500 112 112 107
5000 128 127 121
5500 143 139 133
6000 151 141 143
6500 149 141 148
7000 146 142 152
tro
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Post by D-Railed_Neon » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:26 am

trojmn wrote: If your autox~ing for the most part is almost all 2nd gear. Generally speaking shifting is slow especially when you miss a gear and usually not needed unless your course has a 180 pivot cone. So if your starting out, dont shift. With that in mind, waiting for your meat and potatoes to come on at 4500 is almost as bad as hitting the rev limiter when it finaly does and your wishing for another 500rpm.

You need as much as you can get <6000 and magnum springs, ecu, or whatever it takes to be able to wind out to ~7200. That helps a ton with the in-between gear situations (again think less shifting).

IMO the cam still isn't needed but if you do, maybe adv that 400 a couple degrees like your buddy AND keep the plastic intake?
Thats exactly what Jerome and I were talking about...... Well, the car is mean't to be decent on the track and fun to drive DD. What I plan to do at this point from what we have talked about here, is to simply swap my 02 ES to a R/t or ACR.

I think the 01 r/t cam would be best as it is a little more aggressive than 02s from what I have read. I Will probably end up buying a bare head so if I have to replace the entire valve train anyways, I can stick with the Mopar cam and springs but, any reason I couldnt spend just a little bit more and get those titanium retainers, standard size Stainless valves and an AEM cam gear? It would make the top a little lighter to do it that way I think, and give me a finite amount of tuning without SAFCI , at that point it is a restoration, just using higher quality replacement parts am I right? That shouldn't bump me at all, idk ???

Claim 02 R/t or 02 ACR trim. Another reason to run the mag intake, I believe the numbers but, lets face it, OEM head, OEM cam, OEM intake manifold, and exhausts are basically freebies so I can run the configuration in my original post...minus a defouler lol. At the track 2nd gear all day so your correct in that I won't need top end while Im there but, getting on to the high way on the way back and short romps through town shouldn't be to boring :thumbup:

what do you guys think about that?......


Thanks so much everyone for the help. :rockon:
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Post by RobsProjectSOHC » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:36 am

all i know is definitely aem cam gear. mine fit in without having to modify the case.
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Post by NyNeon0813 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:22 am

Yea I have a fidanza cam gear and the adjustment screws rub on the outside timing cover. Go aem.

And I swapped a rt head with 01 mag cam and mag intake on to my 01 neon.... What a difference! Love it. Good luck with ur build!
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Post by RobsProjectSOHC » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:04 pm

NyNeon0813 wrote:Yea I have a fidanza cam gear and the adjustment screws rub on the outside timing cover. Go aem.

And I swapped a rt head with 01 mag cam and mag intake on to my 01 neon.... What a difference! Love it. Good luck with ur build!
Maybe we can dyno against each other to figure out this battle of Stock RT Cam vs Crane 12. If your down, I plan on dyno'ing my car as soon as I find a dyno.
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Post by NyNeon0813 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:02 pm

Yea def want to get it dyno'd and it would be cool to see how they really compare
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Post by Jerome Adams » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:26 pm

D-Railed_Neon wrote:RobsProjectSOHC-Yes sir that would help out immensely, :rockon: at this point I haven't ruled out that 12.

Nerox- This ain't over yet! lol

trojmn-Thank you sir, that is helpful. :thumbup: However, why would the 400 be out of the question for STC?

The reason I ask is I got together with Jerome Addams tonight and got a chance to drive his 03 NGC neon. He has a magnum head and intake manifold, comp 400, AEM cam gear, OBX longtube, BC coils on pretty close to full soft, and Hotchkis sways. viewtopic.php?t=30852 Overall, the power band on his build was as suspected all in 5000rpm+. The car does pull nicely through the full rpm range but does still seem slightly slower than my current almost bone stock 2.0 non mag. But after id say 4500, HOLY SHIT!!!

After talking with him for quite some time about his current auto X experience he agrees that perhaps that powerband is a bit high for most autox local tracks. but, we both seem to agree that there is still a little play left in the cam advance so whos to say I couldn't dial it back just a little further and keep some of my 02s low end burst.

Guys I really am torn here :banghead: Thank you so much for all the input guys. One way or another this is gonna happen but, it's gonna get done right the first time! In order for that to happen I need all the advice I can get.



btw jerome, sorry to just throw ya into this debate but, you should have known this was gonna happen after you let me drive that beast :thefinger: lol
No worries. I would be disappointed if you didnt use the info to your benefit. Next time I will drive, you never really wound it all the way out (to be expected...not wanting to break somebody else's ride). I have dyno graphs if you want to see. The cam wasnt as far advanced as it is now. I tried setting it to where it peaks just before redline

STF is the way to go if you want to maximize PAX. Also reconsider your exhaust... I would go with vibrant race cat, a nice long resonator (magnaflow or vibrant) inline to a simple muffler in the rear (something that wont attract cops). 2.5" is as big as you would want to go. I know the 03 and up have 2.25 which is fine.
Jerome

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trojmn
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Post by trojmn » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:31 pm

Jerome Adams wrote: STF is the way to go if you want to maximize PAX.
neons are not invited to STF. STC (.820 PAX) is the only touring category for us.

tro
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esteinmaier
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Post by esteinmaier » Tue May 01, 2012 2:35 pm

It sounds to me like the stock class would get you faster PAX times and is free. I've been there, done that. I ended up in street mod, getting spanked badly.
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Post by trojmn » Tue May 01, 2012 6:48 pm

esteinmaier wrote:It sounds to me like the stock class would get you faster PAX times and is free. I've been there, done that. I ended up in street mod, getting spanked badly.
Yep... As mentioned above, if you want to learn to drive start stock as possible especially with the stock class rsb allowance for 2012. Once the hook is.in deep go to school. I just finished phase one and two of the evolution performance driving school. I highly recommend it after a season or so.

Tro
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Post by Jerome Adams » Tue May 01, 2012 9:38 pm

trojmn wrote:
Jerome Adams wrote: STF is the way to go if you want to maximize PAX.
neons are not invited to STF. STC (.820 PAX) is the only touring category for us.

tro
crazy. I modded my way into SMF before I even started auto-X (comp 400 and mag intake). I am not too worried about it, I just wish SMF only allowed street tires. Almost everybody else in SMF here is running street tires so it is cool.
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D-Railed_Neon
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Post by D-Railed_Neon » Mon May 07, 2012 11:00 pm

Thanks for the help everyone. I think I may just piece together a plain old, magnum build with an 01 r/t cam. Ill upgrade suspension kinda for go, but mostly for show, and still do the coilovers. It's a step in the right direction me thinks.
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RobsProjectSOHC
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Post by RobsProjectSOHC » Mon May 07, 2012 11:06 pm

Was going to dyno but i bills came out of no where, sorry man.
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D-Railed_Neon
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Post by D-Railed_Neon » Tue May 08, 2012 6:18 pm

It's all good rob im broke too I will am interested to see what the dyno says. go ahead and post them when you get a chance To stop at the dyno. Thanks man
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