Whos got an NGC r/t with bolt ons, howd it run?

Have a question about how to make horsepower going the all motor route, here's where to ask it.
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millertime
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Whos got an NGC r/t with bolt ons, howd it run?

Post by millertime » Sun May 20, 2012 11:19 pm

Wondering what i can get away with in my 04 r/t? planing on intake, obx header, udp, and comp 400

will this be to much for the ngc ecu? seems like a pretty mild setup but i know these things are picky lol

-Jesse
95 base sohc 2dr mtx, mag head -blew up
95 base sohc 4dr mtx, beater -sold
95 base sohc 2dr mtx, modded beater -sold
96 sport dohc 4dr atx, show car -sold
98 r/t 2dr -sold
04 r/t - just bought
04 srt, 500+hp fully built -sold

occasional demons
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Post by occasional demons » Sun May 20, 2012 11:25 pm

I don't think it will be an issue, as long as you keep the stock bore TB. I recall another member had basically a stock R/T with a 60mm TB, and had no issues, they then added the cam, and other minor bolt ons, and had to go back to the stock TB because it started giving the TB/TPS correlation code with the added airflow from the cam.
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Post by OB » Mon May 21, 2012 12:25 am

The 60mm throttle body is kind of gamble it seems. Some NGC cars do fine, some throw TPS codes. Few have had issues with a cam swap, but then again not many NGC people go beyond a mild cam. I run a UDP, intake, header, lightened flywheel, and some light throttle body porting at the inlet, and have no issues whatsoever. Most of those parts have been on the car for several years. I never tried the larger throttle body or messed with the intake manifold due to the poor/minimal results others have had. I'd say swapping to the 3.94 trans, spec clutch, and light flywheel was the biggest change in performance for me, probably equal to all the other bolt on's combined. Gearing is huge when you want to make a relatively gutless engine put down decent usable torque.
-Derek

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stdlystdmufn
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Post by stdlystdmufn » Mon May 21, 2012 1:59 am

see i thought the 60mm tb problem was only a factor with some 05 my's
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occasional demons
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Post by occasional demons » Mon May 21, 2012 7:20 am

'03/'04 is hit and miss. And Derek, he has an R/T... 3.94 already installed. You are getting rusty...


Oh wait, that's just the reflection off your car. :rofl:


Edit: Unless that was just an example, but it isn't going to help him much regardless. :D
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trojmn
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Post by trojmn » Mon May 21, 2012 10:16 am

OB wrote:The 60mm throttle body is kind of gamble it seems. Some NGC cars do fine, some throw TPS codes.
if it hasnt been seriously investigated, those with correlation issues should really check the TPS voltage operation. The differences could be as much manufacture issues (known) as anything else.
OB wrote: I'd say swapping to the 3.94 trans, spec clutch, and light flywheel was the biggest change in performance for me, probably equal to all the other bolt on's combined. Gearing is huge when you want to make a relatively gutless engine put down decent usable torque.
this^^ 3.94 + 23" tire. the AL flywheel/clutch would certainly help if the price is right.
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millertime
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Post by millertime » Mon May 21, 2012 5:14 pm

haha ya 3.94 trany ftw!

ive got a udp on the way, prob gona do the header next with a fouler mod, then ill go from there.

I know the comp 400 is designed for the mag motors and there stock rev limit but would i be better off with a crane 14 and sum day if i ms it have the rpms?

is there any real performance gain from any parts on the ngc cars?

id love to do a lighter fw/clutch but there quite a bit of money

thanks for the input guys!

-Jesse
95 base sohc 2dr mtx, mag head -blew up
95 base sohc 4dr mtx, beater -sold
95 base sohc 2dr mtx, modded beater -sold
96 sport dohc 4dr atx, show car -sold
98 r/t 2dr -sold
04 r/t - just bought
04 srt, 500+hp fully built -sold

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Post by occasional demons » Tue May 22, 2012 3:23 pm

You will need a way to control fuel from start up, with a crane 14. Valve overlap and oem computer programming do not get along.
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Post by OB » Tue May 22, 2012 9:46 pm

occasional demons wrote:
Edit: Unless that was just an example, but it isn't going to help him much regardless. :D
Yeah, just saying that the other bolt ons made less difference in my case, I realize he has an R/T 8)

Regarding the 60mm TB issue, I have a couple theories on why it is hit and miss. Different PCM flashing/update level would be my first guess. Not sure if and when it changed from 03-05, but this is a real world, fairly likely reason. A narrower threshold for allowed variation between the two sensor readings may have been part of a table change within the PCM program. Another theory is pressure differences in the manifold due to altitude differences and other variables. It's also possible that certain cars, maybe depending on build location or timeframe, could have been equipped with different brand TPS and/or MAP sensors that operate slightly differently (electronically) than their counterparts.

I guess I have more theories than I thought, I'll leave it at that for now. Having a pretty good understanding of how a modern engine management system works can lead to a ton of ideas when it comes to figuring this type of thing out. Though in the end they are just theories, and I'm far too busy to try to narrow it down further, all to make a modification work that is not really worth it in the first place (IMHO).
-Derek

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millertime
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Post by millertime » Tue May 22, 2012 10:08 pm

holy book! but informative!

thanks for the info guys, after a udp what would my next best mod be?

i have srt springs, 26mm frt sway, energy suspension booshings, front strut bar... think thats it lol.

-jesse
95 base sohc 2dr mtx, mag head -blew up
95 base sohc 4dr mtx, beater -sold
95 base sohc 2dr mtx, modded beater -sold
96 sport dohc 4dr atx, show car -sold
98 r/t 2dr -sold
04 r/t - just bought
04 srt, 500+hp fully built -sold

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Post by trojmn » Tue May 22, 2012 10:35 pm

millertime wrote:holy book! but informative!

thanks for the info guys, after a udp what would my next best mod be?

i have srt springs, 26mm frt sway, energy suspension booshings, front strut bar... think thats it lol.

-jesse
the S3 KWs that you sold... stock front sway, 22mm or larger rear sway, 225/45/15 RS3 and some major driver mods.
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millertime
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Post by millertime » Wed May 23, 2012 7:52 am

trojmn wrote:
millertime wrote:holy book! but informative!

thanks for the info guys, after a udp what would my next best mod be?

i have srt springs, 26mm frt sway, energy suspension booshings, front strut bar... think thats it lol.

-jesse
the S3 KWs that you sold... stock front sway, 22mm or larger rear sway, 225/45/15 RS3 and some major driver mods.
lol, na they were more than i needed for a street car, on my srt though that was mostly at the teack, there were awesome.

i have some decent 215/45/17s potenzas on the car, forgot i had hawk pads also. I like the 26 up front, i was thinking of going with a 24 for the rear, or just getting a hotchkis set and be done with it.

-Jesse
95 base sohc 2dr mtx, mag head -blew up
95 base sohc 4dr mtx, beater -sold
95 base sohc 2dr mtx, modded beater -sold
96 sport dohc 4dr atx, show car -sold
98 r/t 2dr -sold
04 r/t - just bought
04 srt, 500+hp fully built -sold

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Post by Danteneon » Wed May 23, 2012 8:41 am

millertime wrote:I like the 26 up front, i was thinking of going with a 24 for the rear, or just getting a hotchkis set and be done with it.

-Jesse
Keep in mind, the Neon (like most FWD cars) tends to understeer. By slapping a huge front swaybar on there you are making it plow worse. You would need to have a 22mm or bigger bar just to offset the front bar. Now, if your plan was to make a car that handles at the track well, this setup would be ideal. But since you sold a set of S3 KWs, I don't think this is your goal.

Follow trojmn's advice and step the front bar down if you are making a street car.
If I could just figure out how to meld the Outback and the Neon into one car...

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Post by trojmn » Wed May 23, 2012 9:05 am

millertime wrote:lol, na they were more than i needed for a street car, on my srt though that was mostly at the teack, there were awesome.

i have some decent 215/45/17s potenzas on the car, forgot i had hawk pads also. I like the 26 up front, i was thinking of going with a 24 for the rear, or just getting a hotchkis set and be done with it.

-Jesse
no way. my 3-r ride better than eibach pro's and at 2x+ the spring rate. with soft springs and 26mm you'll need a HUGE rear bar to get the front end to plant and turn. The hotchkiss RSB is nice (EDIT: imo seems to be too much if you have enough springrate). I ditched the 26 FSB a long time ago even on the soft eibachs. Sure the turn in response "feels" awesome until you really have an opportunity to drive it in anger...then it just plows.

17's are tall, heavy, and thus slow.with your limited power. you would feel significant performance improvement with a 23" tire. roughly +5% gearing advantage. 225/45/15 rs3 have been my favorite for a couple years now.
Last edited by trojmn on Wed May 23, 2012 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Danteneon » Wed May 23, 2012 9:34 am

trojmn wrote:no way. my 3-r ride better than eibach pro's and at 2x+ the spring rate.
This. It still amazes me that a coilover that handles so well is this civil on the street.

I really need to get a set of 15" wheels and tires for my car. I would love to feel how the car handles with a nice set of shorter tires.
If I could just figure out how to meld the Outback and the Neon into one car...

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Post by OB » Wed May 23, 2012 8:32 pm

Yeah these guys are right, a big front sway bar is essentially just making you more work in the way of figuring out a way to reduce understeer, which is already an issue on nearly any FWD car. Contrary to popular belief, running huge sway bars is not always (or even usually) a good way to get a car to handle, particularly a light FWD sedan. I went to SRT sway bars (24F/17R), then put all my tuning efforts into my BC coilovers. I run spring rates that are around 4x stock, which is borderline insane on a street Neon, but I wanted the business so I went all out. I could probably take the sway bars off altogether and have less body roll than a regular Neon with off the shelf aftermarket struts and springs. The sway bars are kind of just there to keep things stable and help reduce bump steer and alignment changes under load. Their anti-roll properties are pretty ineffective on a build like mine.

Sticky, quality tires, light wheels, and all the basic mild suspension parts will get you gripping pretty good. Taking weight out of the car is also an excellent way to wake it up a bit and will lend benefits to handling as well.
-Derek

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trojmn
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Post by trojmn » Wed May 23, 2012 9:24 pm

exactly OB as far as handling goes... most, myself included, started with sway bars, which in the end turned out to be a wasted $$ by band-aiding a problem instead of fixing it. or just flat out being counterproductive. regardless, autox or not a 3.94 trans is still a must.

Knowing what i know now, and if you're on a slight budget:
alignment
tires/wheels
alignment (learn to do this on your own)
22mm or larger, preferably adjustable RSB
bushings
QUALITY adj dampers
alignment

larger budget;
alignment
tires/wheels
target spring/dampers
alignment
bushings
sways if needed

In both scenarios spend every available dime of budget on Evolution or local driving schools and auto-X events. The driver mod is the most important and you'd be surprised how much you suck at it.

as it is right now i am suffering from IMO a slight bit TOO much over-steer. I can flick the ass end out in a short slalom.... This is actually faster if i can keep it under control and if my last name was Andretti.

tro
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millertime
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Post by millertime » Wed May 23, 2012 11:38 pm

thanks for all the info guys!

the only reason i went 17's is they were cheap, lighter than my stock 16's, and well look much better than the stock wheels.

remember this is a pure street dd that may see like 1 auto-x or roadcoarse run a year.

i played around with my s3's they were nice and adjustability was nice but for taking long trips like i do and what not they just dont ride as good as stock srt springs lol, and thats important to my gf lol. s3's do however ride better than any other coilover in a neon ive riden in.

ill try tossing the stock sway back in with a bigger rear untill i get a 24mm rear bar.

konis are going on it sumday when the stockers crap out or get squishy.

and im super lucky cuz i have BIR 3hrs away, we can take my car and his viper down to the driving skool.

again thanks for the help and info!
-jesse
95 base sohc 2dr mtx, mag head -blew up
95 base sohc 4dr mtx, beater -sold
95 base sohc 2dr mtx, modded beater -sold
96 sport dohc 4dr atx, show car -sold
98 r/t 2dr -sold
04 r/t - just bought
04 srt, 500+hp fully built -sold

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Post by Jerome Adams » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:16 pm

Thread revival and back to the original topic...

I have an 03 sxt and had obx lth, aem cai, udp, and mpx 60mm tb and it worked great. When I add the pnp mag head, port matched mag intake with working butterflies, and a comp 400 I started getting the tps correlation error and limp mode. I swapped out tps and map sensors, even swapped out tps pigtail incase the wires were damaged. Only thing that fixed it was going back to stock tb. Then I put the 60mm just to double check and it went to limp mode again.

With stock IM, it was still enough of a bottleneck where it didnt freak it out the comp. but once I opened up the top end, it was too much.

My next step will be milling the head .030 or so. Thinking about MS too (is it legal in SMF)
Jerome

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trojmn
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Post by trojmn » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:13 pm

plug the 60mm in and check your TPS voltage. power on, engine off. what is it TB closed? full open?
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Post by neon_tony » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:59 am

I drive an '04 SX 2.0 with an 03' RT head, cam, 3.94 transmission and ECU. other mods include Shorty header, high flow cat, srt midsection, aftermarket muffler, and RT injectors.

up until a couple weeks ago I was running a green bastard performance intake manifold and a 60 mm TB. my engine light was on forever because I had to use a manual IAC, (1st gen TB) but now it's off. However since returning to stock intake manifold the engine light is off but I am still pulling the code P0660, intake manifold tuning solenoid. I am not sure if it is due to the fact that the computer is expecting to be attatched to a magnum intake and there is none? im not sure. There is no plug on the SX 2.0 wiring harness to attatch the magnum.

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Post by Danteneon » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:12 am

Yep, the Magnum PCM is looking for the MTV that you don't have, hence the code.
If I could just figure out how to meld the Outback and the Neon into one car...

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Post by occasional demons » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:53 pm

Yep, I have the same issue, except the '01/'02 P1289.

The only way to clear that code is to get a socket from another PCM connector, and install it to the correct pin on the PCM. Then run that wire to a relay coil that is grounded, or a resistor that matches the small relays in the PDC.

But since it really doesn't illuminate the CEL, it isn't a big deal.

All those codes I have from that, and the SKIM not communicating, have been there so long, the code scanner no longer picks them up. They will show on the odometer tho.

You know, you can remote mount the correct IAC if you really want to clear the other code. It need not be attached to the TB.

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Post by Yellow04r/t » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:23 pm

millertime wrote:haha ya 3.94 trany ftw!

ive got a udp on the way, prob gona do the header next with a fouler mod, then ill go from there.

I know the comp 400 is designed for the mag motors and there stock rev limit but would i be better off with a crane 14 and sum day if i ms it have the rpms?

is there any real performance gain from any parts on the ngc cars?

id love to do a lighter fw/clutch but there quite a bit of money

thanks for the input guys!

-Jesse
Not nowig the tranny was different when I bought my parts I still put the 3.55 tranny in my 04 r/t I actually prefer it over the 3.94 1st 2 nd and 3rd are pretty deece 4th and 5th kinda suck but gas mileage went way up can't complain about that. Throwing a comp 400 in this winter and light porting on throttle body and intake mani.
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