What I hope to be a *civil* discussion about ethics...

[SILVER-ES]

AND, I also put in that post that apartment complexes sticker for bad (or as they call it incorrect) parking... stickers with preprinted forms on them that they fill out with date, "infraction", and how long you have to do it before you get TOWED. Sometimes it's for something as lame as parking backwards or slightly riding the line, or your car being parked in one space too long (at unassigned complexes). I know, having lived in many of them. And those stickers are a bitch to remove, even WITH a razor. It's not illegal.

Difference is the apartment parking lots are privately owned by the apartment and therefore they may enforce their parking "laws" as they see fit. You are a random citizen "enforcing" your beliefs in public on random cars. Very different.

I will back you up on the vandalism, slightly. Vandalism is usually defined as when a person knowingly causes serious physical damage to a structure or its contents. The stickers, even if they were hard to remove do not constitute serious enough damage to be vandalisim. However, I still strongly disagree with doing ANYTHING to someone elses vehicle.

I think Hansken summed it up best, ethcis or not, "Two wrongs do not make a right."

[60trim]

I didn't mean for my post to sound like someone was vandilizing my car, I just stated it was disrespectful.

[Arro]

Glad that was clarified, and then I refer to my original post in this thread where I stated, per my own personal choice, when I feel someone is disrespectul, they forfeit respect I would have normally afforded them. That was towards the end of my post.

The odds are, 99% of the people I see parking stupid I'll ignore. I have restraint (otherwise I'd get into a hell of a lot of fistfights cuz I see A LOT of stuff that to me is just WAY wrong). That's also why I gave all the rest of those stickers away except for a handful. But that 1%, Ifind exceedingly difficult to ignore. it doesn't help when I see some reactions on here that further justify the very issue I had in the first place. Anyways these things are weaker adhesive than a post-it.

I respect what you all in this thread are saying, and I'm not saying what I said to be a dick. I just honestly feel like I am trying to balance things out. I am simply, plainly, sick and tired of assholes, or "douchebags" as one person (ironically) put it. I'm don't feel the way I do out of some cockiness, or arrogance. I feel that way out of some feeling of being wronged, either personally or more usually with me, in a representative fashion. Two wrongs? That's compelling, and something I will have to think about, to give you credit , Hansken. Still, I've never helfd much value in the passive approach.

I can tell you all this: I wouldn't have listened to anyone calling me a "douchebag" or threatening my life, regardless of how little I worry over those such things. You get a lot more flies with honey than vinneagar, but then most of you (certainly in this thread) seem to know that.

I appreciate that everyone who posted in this thread did so with some civility, and as such, I truely care about what was said here. I know who the "adults" are on 2GN. I will indeed think about all this.

lolelectricbluesxt said: "If we are going to talk about ethics, lets try to talk about how to solve that problem first, which is what lead to people taking two spots to begin with. " fair enough... what about that?


So I'll think it over.

[Chibits12]

The definition of property is a bundle of rights over resources that the owner is free to exercise and whose exercise is protected from interference by others. In other words, "property gives people liberty over things, car or whatever." The key word in the definition is "owner," not others.

Let's apply a bit of economic theory of property in a make-believe situation:

For example, suppose "Bob" parks his car each day in a wrong manner and Jean, the car closer to Bob, gets upset seeing him park like this because she needed the "lost" parking space. Say we live in a world that we condone placing bumper stickers on other cars.

What are their threat values?

Cost for Bob to park right: 0
Cost for Jean to park right: $100 (combined cost for her monthly parking outside and the cost for removing Bob's sticker on his car).

What are Jeans options? It would cost more for Jean to park out in the street w/out cooperation from Bob. If Bob parks right, it allows cooperation and eliminates the externality. Private bargaining is still possible if the need arises and more efficient if the transaction costs aren't too high. If it's high enough, the efficient use of resources (parking lot) will be determined by how the property rights are assigned, that's when people start suing.

One sentence to sum up: In terms of social efficiency, it's definitely more efficient if both parties cooperate than having one party to have undue difficulty. Bumper stickers could lead to litigation, which is less efficient due to increased transaction costs. We could keep going by applying the Coase Theorem but my head starts to spin after that, lol.

It would be nice if everyone parks right but it'll never happen.

[lambostealth]

Alright, I will try to be as civil as I can with you.


I see you have taken the time and patience to type a VERY lengthy epilogue, trying to put an end to, and making an excuse for the sticker incident.

As much as I appreciate (and I do, and I did read it all) your points. I STILL don't see where you convince me that it is OK for you to do this.

You talk about "civility", and respect, and disrespect, however, you make no point for the individual that you have NO idea about what thier situation is, or was when they parked.

Put yourself in thier situation.........

Chew on this, what if that person is handicapped, doesn't happen to have a placard, or the handicapped spots are filled, and they take two spots up right in front of the building so they can get thier wheelchair out of thier car??

Although your "justice" may seem to make you feel better when you do it, how do you think they would react to it??

Like I said, you just haven't convinced me that your "justice" is OK, or even legal for that matter.

My friend is here in the room with me, he is a local police officer. He says that if I were to see you do it, to take down your license number, remove the sticker, scratch the crap out of my bumper, and haul your ass to small claims to repair my paint.

He also told me to take a screenshot of your first thread, that way, if I get a little gift, or one of my friends do, I can show the jjudge that you had intent, motive, warnings, and pre-meditation of vandalism. Even if it wasn't you that did it.

Doesn't feel like a wise idea anymore does it??

[OB]

ok so since most everyone has expressed that a sticker would be a bad idea and possibly "illegal" etc, why not just leave a non sticky note under their windshield wiper? that would get any point across you like, and do so in safe, non illegal way. I think that taking action against people who do this is a good idea, but at the same time it wouldnt be worth the consequences that might come along with it. Arro, as you said yourself, people in CA dont play around, and violence could easily come of this.

Chris, you made a point regarding a handicapped person. Though it would be "morally" fair to allow a handicapped person to basically park however they want, it simply isnt fair to others and shouldnt be considered. They have placards and special spots for them already, and if they have to go to the store or wherever, they should take the time to secure said placard prior to driving. It's like driving without a license because you 'forgot to renew at dmv'. The law is the law, no matter what ones situation is.

[lambostealth]

ok so since most everyone has expressed that a sticker would be a bad idea and possibly "illegal" etc, why not just leave a non sticky note under their windshield wiper? that would get any point across you like, and do so in safe, non illegal way. I think that taking action against people who do this is a good idea, but at the same time it wouldnt be worth the consequences that might come along with it. Arro, as you said yourself, people in CA dont play around, and violence could easily come of this.

Chris, you made a point regarding a handicapped person. Though it would be "morally" fair to allow a handicapped person to basically park however they want, it simply isnt fair to others and shouldnt be considered. They have placards and special spots for them already, and if they have to go to the store or wherever, they should take the time to secure said placard prior to driving. It's like driving without a license because you 'forgot to renew at dmv'. The law is the law, no matter what ones situation is.

Good, valid points, however, I am not trying to defend disrespectful parkers. While I may think it's gay, and a dick-move, I would just shake my head, rather than go out of my way packing my pockets full of evenly disrespectful notes.

I am however trying to get the point across that, his action of placing a sticker, no matter how easy to remove, is just as disrespectful, and, in my opinion, steps over the greater line that is touching someones car.

I guess I'm just a little overprotective of my paint.

[Arro]

Well, I'm glad you toned it down a bit. So keeping that in mind...

I appreciate your concern for your paint job. Even though I admit you pissed me off once before and now this time, it's still obvious to me that your car has had a lot of expensive work done to it, and I would understand your nervousness about anyone comming close to it.

Before I even get to the sticker, let me just say that, while I appreciate what you have done with your car, I don't think that it entitles you to two spaces. Now, I did indeed read where you said you try not to park like an idiot.

Now, onto the sticker... first off, your officer friend is not a lawyer. My friend of 14 years is, and in fact this kind of thing happens to be what he's practiced for the past few. I will ask him, but from a rather informed layperson expectation, I cannot think that anything in this thread constitutes proof of any of my actions. I'm pretty well read on the developments of the internet and legality over the years, and email and online forums are not admissible in most cases, with the few exclusions involving capital crimes. Those are crimes such as murder, rape, and grand theft. Petty crime wouldnt have a bearing. What is more, having been on both sides of a small claims courtroom, I can tell you that evidence is, for the most part, subjective, and since in this case, this product is freely sold on the internet... well you are I think smart enough to see where I am heading with this.

As far as scratching your own bumper, well I would personally recommend that, as I can't imagine most judges to consider that damage done by said decal, especially when he/she is holding one of them for themselves. Again, I've been on both sides of the courtroom for small claims. You would most likely pay for one day's income of whoever you drag into court.

Look, man, I can kinda understand how you've felt about things from the beginning. You, personally. And I don't say this harshly -- you are used to lots of idiots in the world, and you would hate to find out that one is not only present in a community you frequent, but advising people in a manner you find unethical.

You just have a rather abrasive way to go about it, but that's ok. I do sometimes, too.

That said,

I respect your feelings. I just don't agree with them. And I have, in my own effort, taken the time to see that nothing I would ever do would cause even the least little bit of interference with someone, other than causing them to notice my message. I would never deface something. I feel I am old enough and smart enough to know the difference.

I appreciate your concern and overprotectiveness over your paint job, and that you extend that to others similarly. I appreciate your concern for those who might take an action out of no choice, that I would mistake for an offensive effort, when it was innocent. I also, before, appreciated your concern that safety not be unnecessarilly compromized for the sake of fitting some wheels. Your concern is noble. I just feel it's a bit excessive, and at least in this scenario, not realistic, and wholly unnecessary.

for what it's worth, I reitterate that the odds I would do this are so slim, I could sit on one of these decals for a year. Or clean my car out one day and just say "eff it" and trashbag them with the burrito wrappers and soda cups. I only feel you are taking something too seriously that has NO potential to cause harm, and only potential to say, "Hey mister, that wasn't nice whatcha did." No harm I say, and as the phrase says,

No harm, no foul. Please give that some thought, since I've made it obvious I'm trying to listen to everyone else.

[lambostealth]

OK, I read it, thought it over.


I do want to say that my "I'd slit your throat" statement was OBVIOUSLY a joke, but, I wouldn't take the sticker lightly. Especially if I caught you doing it.

Also, I will leave the court thing alone, I've been there, don't need to argue my case here, just know that it is indeed vandalism, and, you should strongly consider the consequences, versus your feelings.

I just don't get how it pisses you off more, that a person would park sideways, than it would to come out to your freshly, or un-freshly painted car to find a nice door ding where the kids in the SUV next to you that is now gone carelessly swung open thier doors.

Your quest reminds me of these....


They were just pieces of paper that were left under the wipers of violators, no sticker, no damage, just a message.

What I'm getting at, is that your anger seems aimed in the wrong direction. The ones that ding cars by parking like idiots, or carelessly swinging open thier doors are the ones I feel should get a message. Not the ones trying to avoid it, remember, I already said I don't do it.

If we didn't have these careless people dinging doors, you wouldn't have the asshole parkers. More than likely.

[03sxt]

[lolelectricbluesxt]

Way to go Chris. I made that point on like post # 3

Which leads me to :

lolelectricbluesxt said: "If we are going to talk about ethics, lets try to talk about how to solve that problem first, which is what lead to people taking two spots to begin with. "

fair enough... what about that?
.

(going to be rambling, I'm getting off work soon and need to make this quick)

In which I respond. I honestly have no idea how to solve the general lack of disrespect people who towards other peoples property. I can speak with experience in this field when I say I have had issues with this numerous times. In the last two years I have had my tires sliced, nails hammered in to them - My vehicle has been egged to the point where I have paint damage on the left side of my car and I have had my front window shot out.

This being said I think we can divide these kind of people who damage other peoples vehicles in to two groups

Those who intentionally damage a persons vehicle

and

Those who unintentionally damage a persons vehicle

Shit. I am going to have to continue this later.

[flamingpinhead]

"you can not reason with the unreasonable"

[KrackstaR]

"you can not reason with the unreasonable"

But you can fart and they would smell it.

[Arro]

Damn. Okay well that makes some sense.

(see, I listen! er I mean "read").

Fine.

IF I even do this, it will go under the windshield wiper, much like the mickey mouse note.

I should tell you guys tho...

My roommate is 28. He owns a 2006 GTO. We went to In-n-out last night, where all his 'Goat buddies show up on some Saturdays. Most of them said "I'd key the car".

Just goes to show you how one social group might differ from another. I'm not saying it justifies putting on a sticker, but still, it's something to think about.

And GTO's are far more expensive than the most expensive Neon, no offense to any of our cars.

For what it's worth, the stickers (if I can really call them that, I swear a post-it has more adhesive.. maybe these are actually just static..??) don't stick too well.

The point about "what is worse, dings or two spaces?" Well, dings suck, yes, so do dents... so do eggs and slashings, etc. I'm kinda torn on all this now, because I've heard from a completely different group of genuine car enthusiasts, both compelling. The GTO guys are, sadly, a bit of an elitist group, and put down anything short of a well-tuned Mark IV Supra. Still, they were adamant that dings and dents are the risks we take when we take our vehicles out on the town, and that never does it entitle us to two spots. Most of them did say that out in the open or away from the bulk of other parked cars, it wouldn't be a big deal.

I want to share one last thing, and then I'll consider this a resolved issue (at least in our little community and with myself, although comments are still welcome) -- My uncle was like the last living original greaser from his time. Uncle Joe always wanted a harley, but never got one. He had a trike for the longest time, and it was badass.

One day he retired, and took out enough moneyto build his bike. It wasn't super fancy, but it was still very custom, with long forks, and plenty of chrome. He would never take it out, though, and was always worried he'd drop it or get hit, or someone bump it in an parking lot and turn it over... So 99% of the time, over the next five or so years, it sat in the garage, until finally he sold it.

That's all I have to say on this, other than thanks for the opinions, and that we left the overinflated egos (my own included) behind. We all own Neons, we have that in common, so yeah, we do have a common interest, and your opinions matter to me.

[lambostealth]

In my experience, among others, the GTO guys along with many others, will talk big game in front of other guys, but if they came across it, they would keep thier keys in thier pocket in lieu of getting a fat fine from vandalism.

We've all heard someone talk big, but, when presented with the situation, most act genuinely scared, or nervous.

All points were made, and I think taken well.

I will apologize for my direct insults, and just say that they were in direct result for what I saw as arrogance.

I feel a bit differently now, as you have decided to at least give both sides some thought.

Something society would gain a lot from doing.

I do however want to point out, since you brought it up, that I still feel it is unsafe, and not a good idea to go around hacking, or trimming your suspension, only to stuff more tire under the car. There are safer ways to attain the added suspension feel from a taller sidewall.

You could get a set of wheels with a shallower offset, a skinnier tire, add a set of spacers to move the tire away from the strut, etc., since it is obvious you are more concerned with comfort than road racing, you shouldn't mind gaining snap, delayed turn-in, while also destroying your Neon's pretty damn good handling. Since more sidewall, makes the car push (understeer) more, the car will hesitate, then snap in suddenly, possibly causing a lack of rear traction, thus swinging the rear around on you. And these cars don't need help getting the ass end around under spirited driving.

Anyways, good talk, glad we have all decided to be civil................for now.

[Arro]

Well, to follow on that side note, I've decided firmly on BC coils, and until then, I'll keep the chromies on and wait to puton the SRT's. Better safe than sorry. And I agree with you, sounds like concensus.

[WykedHellFire]

thats alot to read but for now.

[lolelectricbluesxt]

Well, to follow on that side note, I've decided firmly on BC coils, and until then, I'll keep the chromies on and wait to puton the SRT's. Better safe than sorry. And I agree with you, sounds like concensus.

Sweet. BC inverteds by chance? I helped install a set of those on Lambos car. Very nice.

[Arro]

I haven't decided... tell you what, I'll start another thread so you guys can help me decide.