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This post isn't intended to contain a flame war, but to open up what I think is a larger issue that really bothers me. It began with something as small as a bumper sticker, but for me it is much more than that. So I will spell it all out, civilly, without malice, and without haste. I will not pass personal judgements, nor will I insult, but I would hope that a similar lack of bravado is maintained here. I am not in control of your personal standards, each and every one of you. That is your own responsibily. With that said...

I have given this bumper sticker thing much thought, and after that, this is how I feel about it all.

Normally I would agree with those of you who think it’s wrong to slap a sticker on something, however easy or not it is to remove. But this, to me, isn’t a normal situation.

For me this concerns American values, and, I suppose, that includes most of North America (Canada), with perhaps the exception of Quebec, since they seem to strive to be apart from North American culture, for better or worse.

I reiterate once again, I never concerned myself with people parking weird in wide open areas. I was talking about someone parking ridiculous just because they believe that they have the right to two spaces. But after much thinking, I realize that for me, this is something greater than parking crooked intentionally.

This has to do with decency, and with standards. I’m 32, as someone has so pointed out, so I can remember a time when things were different. I remember when kids were kept back a grade when they failed. I remember when stuff from the store came without safety caps and hermetic seals because no one had yet tried to poison a perfect stranger. And I remember when major department stores were in English.

And I remember when people stopped for red lights, and running one was a big deal. Now four or five run one. I’m not talking about in urban areas where the busy streets have signals with no protected left turn arrow. I mean where the arrow is there, but some people feel they are above everyone else and can go anyways.

And I remember when taking up two spaces was considered taboo, and was rarely seen, because most people would have been embarrassed to do so. And it’s not like they had tiny cars back then.

I guess what bothers me is that these are things that *should* bother other people, and I suppose do indeed bother them, but, much like the gas prices, most people sit back at their computers, or on their lunch breaks, or at the bar, and just talk about it, and do nothing. They don’t really lay the guilt and shame on those who take advantage, so those who take advantage continue to do so, unchecked, and that encourages others with similarly-weak ethics. And the laws aren’t enacted nearly as tough as they used to be, because nobody has the initiative to fight for better laws. And anyways, if today’s society were culturally tougher on those who took advantage, the taboo would make the law unnecessary.

I am fully-aware, on the other side of this, that we emphasize a certain level of freedom in this nation, so I am not suggesting we create a law or taboo against everything. Not only that, but I also understand that two people can disagree and both feel they are equally right. However, I am not here to debate semantics, and there are obviously some things that are wrong, no matter how “right” the person thinks he or she is. Simply believing you are “right” doesn’t make you so. I am well aware this applies to myself, however I tend to feel that I am a reasonable judge of right and wrong.

Is it wrong to slap a sticker on a car? Or a flyer even? Usually, yes. But I feel it is worse to take advantage of things at the expense of others. It’s very un-American by the traditional definition, although sadly, it is becoming the new American attitude, replacing the old traditional values. To me, more and more it has sounded very egocentric, and basically saying through actions, “I can do what I want, and if you try to stop me, confront me, criticize me, or punish me for it, you are not only wrong, but I will stab you in the eye with my fork if I catch you.” Perhaps to some that might seem like an exaggeration, but we aren’t far from that now, and horrible things have often come from meager beginnings.

I have seen things change. I used to believe very much in “two wrongs don’t make a right”, but the law and society has begun to fail to keep decent the place I find myself in. Sure, there have always been places in the world where it was like this or worse, but on this continent, we have always strived to be above that. To respect ourselves by respecting [/i] others. Taking advantage of things at the expense of others is not respect. It disrespects society, and those who directly lose out, and finally, the self.

I personally feel that when this occurs, said person who has such disrespect has forfeited any respect returned. I have been called disrespectful for this attitude, but thinking about it now, it only strengthens my convictions.

Perhaps it isn’t worth the drama, or in some parts where there are seriously dangerous people, placing a sticker, or even a note as someone has suggested, is a bad idea. But perhaps someone needs to take a risk at their own expense, more often, and more people need to do something -- anything -- to give the message to those who would take advantage that their actions do not go unnoticed or especially unchallenged.

Would it be better if I stood there and personally confronted the offender? Perhaps. Would it do any good? NO. There is always the chance they will, by superior force, foil my effort to challenge them. That doesn’t make them right. In fact, it makes them barbaric, in the more subtle of meanings.

But a sticker… a note is easily discarded, even laughed at. A sticker demands attention, and no matter how upset someone gets over it… no matter how much they rationalize to themselves that they didn’t deserve it and thus nobody had a right to place it there… they know… THEY KNOW, with certainty, that it was NOT done with petty vandalism in mind, but to check the initial ethical failure. And nothing less could possibly have done that, and anything else would have been extreme.

Someone stated something very important in all this. If you don’t park like an idiot, then you have nothing to worry about. But the reality is, this should be true of ALL things in life. Consideration for others is so very important, especially when we are faced with ever-increasing population densities, and ever-increasing communication between peoples of all regions via internet and telephone. Respect IS important, but we cannot expect it in the face of our own disrespect. That would be having your cake, and eating it, too.

So am I disrespectful? In my opinion (and this includes this particular forum), NO. I am actually very respectful. I may change lanes often, but I give plenty of room, and signal ahead of time. I make certain to park like I should, whenever possible, even if it means re-parking. I don’t run red turn signals 99% of the time. If I accidentally cut someone off, I wave and apologize. If someone has been waiting at a driveway exit to merge, I graciously let them in, even though the jerk behind me is honking at me because five seconds later the light turned green. I still hold doors open for people. I treat foreigners with respect, even though I find it disrespectful to see (for example) Spanish included on major signs and literature (and I’m half Mexican, at that).

Some of you feel disrespected personally on here, but after closely reading what has been said this time and elsewhere, I have unfortunately determined that nobody was personally singled out by my comments. I say “unfortunately”, because it is also quite clear that isn’t the case in the other direction. It began with someone commenting rather rudely in the simple matter of discussing suspension modifications, where rather than respectfully disagreeing, somebody felt the need to insult. Of course, I should not have bitten that bait, but forum flaming is contagious, and also because perhaps it fell in line with the sentiments in this longwinded but (for me) very necessary post.

Regardless, it continued into this issue, and apparently some people felt the need to jump on said bandwagon. Sadly, it became quite personal, which was never my own intention. I’m glad I didn’t start the personal attacks, but I’m not glad it came to that. The truth is, I never meant anyone disrespect in a personal sense. As I said, I am very respectful. However…

I am very respectful, as I have explained earlier in this post... until I spot disrespect. Then, as far as I am concerned (and this came from years of contemplation), that person forfeits any respect I might have given them.

Sadly, I am beginning to believe that this is where things are going in society. Are my sentiments going to actually make a difference? I am beginning to believe they are not. However, if more people who feel the way I do actually take some kind of action, any kind, for that matter, then perhaps it will slow the decay a bit, or who knows, even move us in the right direction.

I was going to give the last ten stickers away, and say “eff’ it.” However, after writing all this, and really giving it thought, and knowing full well that the only damage one of these stickers could possibly cause is to someone’s pride, I kind of feel it’s my civic duty to keep a few with me, just in case I do indeed spot something way out of line. It is easy to say “I wouldn’t do that” when you don’t have the stickers, or when you aren’t there at the time. I used to say that, too. I’m just tired of sitting back and doing nothing. If it’s not the responsibility of the police (it is not), and other people refuse to make it undesirable socially, then someone has to do something about it.

And I think that is as best as I can put it, civilly, and with plenty of thought beforehand.

I do hope people comment on here, and I'm more than willing to listen to civil argument. A few of you know this by email. I feel that some of you had some good points, and this is more appropriate a place to voice them, same as with myself.

If you really don't have much to say, I can respect and even appreciate that, as this is a car forum, however I did place this in Off-Topic, and I typically feel that there is more to an auto enthusiast than his/her car.

wow, that was quite a read! i can understand much of your thought on this. however sadly this may just turn into another war, pointless discussion about things that simply wont change. that is the sad part. you mention internet forum discussoins, yet this is now one of them. where people will just talk talk talk.

the 'problematic people' that you speak of sadly seem to have the upper hand. i have always thought the more ethical and morals you hold, the more difficult it becomes to come out on top. the lesser the way the easier it is.

example: kids playing around a car parked on the street infront of your house. throwing a football around perhaps. out of concern you ask them to not do this in the street, perhaps a yard would be better. they say "FUCK YOU" and continue to do what they want, and throw one right towards your ride. you speak with them again not so kindly. once again, "FUCK YOU" is basically what is said.
now because you spoke out you can count on some mysterious dings aand scratches to your car while your sleeping. thats one of the reasons why i was soooo hellbent on buying a house with a garage. (along with working on the car in any weather, the biggest reason, and the potential for hail here.)
im not sure if im getting at where your going with this but i have some thoughts on this as well. its sad you have to watch yourself around youths, because they know they can do shit and get away with it.

on another note, i do roadrage... and i also park in the outer areas of the parking lot (where cars actually are, not in the next county) but i dont find it necessary to take up 2 spaces. this just attracts attention to your car. LOOK AT ME!!!
as for the traffic stuff, im more reserved in driving now. around town there are times i dont even go the speedlimit, but 2mph under. its much more relaxing than trying to fight one's way to the 'front'
i recall just yesterday my light turned green, but the guy giong the opposite direction whipped a left infront of me (no arrow for him). as stated, the upper hand is harder. what could i do but hit the brakes and the horn and let him do what he wants?

ok, im done ranting. but i can see where your coming from with some of your ideas.

CliffsNotes? Seriously, my attention span isn’t that great. By the time I was done reading I had forgot what you said... J/K

i dont understand the point of this whole stupid sticker....ya its just that, stupid....do you honestly think Mr. BMW is gonna change because of your little no stick sticker??? your just wasting your time and money on pointless shit.....i understand your trying to right a wrong.....but whats the point when its not gonna make any difference?

Alternate perspective.

You say people take two parking spots intentionally like they are the total bad guys. But, people take two parkings spots because of the general disrespect people show towards other peoples property. This includes carelessly opening their doors allowing them to hit other peoples cars, removing items from one car and accidently hitting other persons etc etc and not taking the responsiblity for helping pay for whatever damage occures, leaving the owner to pay for it.

If we are going to talk about ethics, lets try to talk about how to solve that problem first, which is what lead to people taking two spots to begin with.

Do you not agree?

^Yes! Emphatically! But now I have to go out for lunch

But yes, you are taking it to the next level!

My sentiments exactly - I never double park, and I usually stay away from those who do. I understand why people do it, but do not agree with it, although I can understand that to some people a car is just a means to an end (like my wife use to think until her car was dinged in a parking lot by a careless jerk). So although I sympathize with the person whose car has been mauled by others carelessness, I do NOT agree with parking in two spots.

Why? Because it is just as bad as those who ding doors. It also shows no respect for others, and even though they are avoiding something worse happening, they also set themselves up for something worse, like a sticker on the car which states whatever about them being whatever. It is just as disrespectful as well.

What ever happened to "just leave the others alone" and not worry about what Johnny Nextdoorneighbor is doing and focus more on what WE are doing? If you are looking at your neighbor and judging them, the same messure will be used to judge you - and you are NOT paying attention to yourself.

My old home director in LV use to say all the time "take that plank out of your eye first!" (reference to the bible) - "then worry about another speck of dust in their eye" I love it because it is so true... we see the huge wrong being done to us instead of looking at the wrong we may be causing others.

As a Christian I believe to do unto others as have done unto me, and I also believe that when we see wrong in the world, getting angry because of what it does to us, is wrong as well. Think about it, the only things that should really make us mad are things like children in africa starving, people being erradicated because of ethnicity or religious beliefs, or AIDS runnign rampant because of no education and being poor or penniless.

I can't justify getting mad at someone for parking in two spots, I can only shake my head and make sure I do not do the same thing. I can also not get mad when someone dings my doors, instead I just need make sure I do not do it myself.

My 2 bits.

I mean. I will admit, there are no doubt quite a few assholes in the world who park like that intentionally for no reason.

But I think what leads to this problem is people coming back to their car, and finding huge dents or scratches on the side of it and are left to foot the bill by themselves. This leaves a bad taste in their mouth leaving them to just take two spots next time so that they do not have to deal with that issue again. Also, other people who may have not experienced this before may just take two spots altogether to attempt to avoid the whole mess.

What it all comes back to is of course, your idea about disrespect, but an alternate view on it I suppose.

I'd just like to point out that you just can't state "good ethics" or "good morality" as a justification or anything to that nature. There are different views on ethics/morality... some views would say that the retard parking weird, dinging doors, or sticking stickers should be shot in the head to serve as an example; "do this and be shot in the head," or whatever. Other views would say to leave the problem alone. There could be more 'good' coming from the actions of people acting like retards and therefore their actions are justified. Like making someone walk farther, thusly getting them to exercise more and improving their quality of life.

It's all really pointless to argue...

Also respect was mentioned somewhere, right? (I seriously can't remember and don’t want to re-read everything.) Is defacing someone’s property respectful? Even if it is a mere seemingly harmless sticker. A plastic bag is seemingly harmless, yet I could kill a hundred people with it, theoretically (I'd never do such thing )

I guess the plain simple phase that "two wrongs don't make a right" kind of fits the bill here.

Yeah, idiot asswholes piss me off, but the only thing I can try to do about it is try to be the better person and teach my children (when and if I have any) to do the same.

Well perhaps I am from a slightly more agressive school of approach, and for me, "stickering" is a sort of symbolism for my view on a variety of things.. I understand how you all feel, and while my literal viewpoint is harsher, in practice I would not go stickering just anyone who apparently parked crooked. However, there have indeed been times I have felt such a similar reaction was required, and so I guess for myself, even posession and distribution of these kinds of "symbols" begets the effort I was saying is needed... the position of standing up and saying, "No, sir, you should not do that, it's not decent."

But who am I to judge? Ahh there's the interesting thing to me... I notice how often people say "I don't judge", but I am of the belief that we all do, whether we realize it or not.

So I judge. Carefully, but I do, like any other human being. I won't key or dent a car (since I appreciate and respect cars, despite what might have been felt by some), but I would leave a harmless note that will insist on their attention. By harmless but attention-demanding, I do not mean a piece of paper they will toss without a second thought.

I agree that we have to be the better person as often as possible, so to that end, I can assure you I would not sticker without REALLY good reason. But I do feel these kinds of things have genuine purpose in society. Think of it as a parking ticket issued by a citizen. Which I might point out, in some cities are contained in adhesive envelopes.

All good points, thanks to those who are commenting here.

wasnt gonna bring it up, but i have to disagree with the stickers. i would flip my lid if i saw ya putting a sticker on my car, for any reason! but that aside. i usualy 'hunt' for the end spaces, simply so i can park as far away from the line as possible. moroons with HUGE SUVs and then careless jackasses as said before will ding you without thinking twice.
my only suggestoin is somewhere like walmart or the mall: if your going to take up 2 spaces, please do so at least midway out in the parking lot, not up front. i have in the past taken up two but i feel it attracts too much attention.

and reality is, stickers or not, not much is going to change the arrogance of the general population.
and i always hate calling companies/banks. before they even START the menu options, i have to hear some crap in spanish about pressing #2. (yes, i know its the spanish menu option fot those who dont know english. but imo, if you dont know english and you have been in this country for any amount of time... maybe you need to learn it)

personal I've wanted to just fill a super soaker with brake fuild and spray the cars that take up 2 spaces.

I'll get flamed for saying that but you all don't live where I used to live and saw what i saw and deal with what I dealt with.

I'm not talking about like at a walmart or something.

I'm talking about a place that one space is the difference between whether or not your car gets broken into.

An your up half the night worring if your car will still be there in the morning all cause one person parked his SUV in 2 spaces.

But now that I've moved and live in a great place I no longer feel that way.

But Arro I see what your saying and I tend to think along those lines.

Instead of a sticker just pee all over it.

a) it would make you feel better
b)if someone sees you do it they may join you in the chance to pee on a BMW
c)pee comes off quicker than a sticker
d)dogs and cats (and probably the neighbor's kids) have been doing it for years and gotten away with it, why not you

^The above was just for funny has has^

Seriously I feel your pain but living on a planet full of ignorant peoples is one of the biggest tests of the human constitution. How you cope is your salvation. Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger no doubt and if you feed into it your just part of the problem. Unfortunately there is no easy solution however I will pass on a quote I read somewhere that has stuck with me and I always try to remeber it in those trying situations.
It goes:
Never argue with a dumbass, they will only drag you down to their level then defeat you with their experience.

Curiously enough, I got kind of pissed today after school. Slightly off-topic, but relevant. I had just gotten in the car and rolled down the windows because the blazing heat when this black hatchback drives by. Now, I see/hear this car nearly everyday; one because his exhaust is so bloody loud, and two because he drives like an idiot. Well, on the busy street in front of the school, he decided to hammer it in first like he always does, and the exhaust note nigh tore my ear off when he pulled by my door.

Now, I've got nothing against opening up, we all do it, but this is truly stupid and disrespectful. It's hard not to hit kids that just cross the street without looking when school lets out, and this idiot flies down the crowded street. Not only is his exhaust obnoxious, but he could seriously kill someone. I followed him to a stop up the road, which he screamed off once he rolled to a stop. Why can't people, especially kids my age, realize that you don't need to glue your foot to the gas pedal, it's okay to go the speed limit. Even under it!

OverDrive418 wrote: b)if someone sees you do it they may join you in the chance to pee on a BMW

Nutmeg wrote:Why can't people, especially kids my age, realize that you don't need to glue your foot to the gas pedal, it's okay to go the speed limit. Even under it!

With the gas prices the way they are, this ailing engine and trans, and my lowly income, I don't race around much so I can save money and avoid costly repairs. Plus, I was in a car with someone who ran into a pedestrian once, long ago, and that was forever burned in my brain, so I agree with you 100%

i witness tons of things in my life that boils my blood but i dont react cause i just dont have the time. If it doesnt harm me then i tend to let it be.

Be safe on you actions there is no need to get hurt for something that stupid. Some people (including myself) love there cars and will do anything to protect them.

whoa what did i miss


so your putting stickers on windows that are intentionally parking in two spots? what kinda stickers

personally in large parking lots i dont care if its in the back because its "outta sight outta mind"

i havent had to deal with smalllot avengers lol

but bro isnt putting stickers on personal cars... destruction of property?


i duno if i saw a sticker on my windsheild i would want to see the person who did it... to chat



but im an asshole with morals that i occasionally read over

KrackstaR wrote: Some people (including myself) love there cars and will do anything to protect them.

I was just thinking the exact same thing. Slapping a sticker on my car would be like walking up and slapping a sticker on my woman’s forehead. You just don't do that.

Stickering a guy's car to get him to realize something? You can't have a battle of wits with an unarmed person but, if you really feel the need to get your point of view across, treat his car with the same respect that you would want him to treat yours with... don't apply the sticker, just leave it under the wiper.

You'll probably set off the car alarm but you'll have this anger off your chest without damaging his car.

"Never engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person."

"Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, and beat you."

A few of you need to read what you skimmed over in the first post of this thread, where I said that for one thing, it's not necessarilly vandalism (see the comment about parking police) any more than flyers, and for another, most people arrogant enough to park like that (when they shouldn't, I'm not talking about out in wide open areas) could care less and would see it as just another flyer under their wiper. Hell, they would probably keep it, and put it on someone else's car, and NOT necessarilly with any discrimination.

I took the time to carefully think out what I have to say, and most of the people in this thread paid attention, but I can tell a few of you skimmed through, otherwise you would have seen that I addressed some of your comments already.

Please just take the time and read it. If you aren't going to read it, then your comments might not be on par. That's all I'm saying on that.

i cant read this... theres too much

It IS vandalism, since

1) YOU ARE NOT A COP GIVING A TICKET!
2) You are tacking something to someone else's car without their permission.
3) Flyers are advertising, and are not stickers

Also, you assume you know what the person, or said offender(ee?), is thinking... whatch yourself, assuming a lot there are you not?

Besides, some people on this site can't focus that long and be able to read without spacing out and loosing insterest. I read it, and I still disagree with what you plan to do. I think that you may have some anger issues and need to work on those first before you start pasting stickers on peoples vehicles because of some personal issues.

my questions and points still stand

I can see how it goes. I remember back in high school, one of our rivals came over the week before a big game and wrote "HHS Sucks" all over our windows with white shoe polish. Granted it was all in good fun, I felt it was still disrespectful. I just took a razor blade, scraped off the writing and went about my day. We ended up whooping their team 42 to 7 that following weekend and we wrote OWNED on there cars the following week. Yes, I know, two wrongs don't make a right, but it was all in good fun.

It ISN'T vandalism, and my former apartment complexes sure stickered our car windows without permission whenever THEY felt we were not parking as they desired. And those things were hard to remove, even WITH a razor blade! But then again...

I put all that down in the first post.

heyitsstock wrote:my questions and points still stand

Hmmm well let's see, you said:

heyitsstock wrote: whoa what did i miss

so your putting stickers on windows that are intentionally parking in two spots? what kinda stickers?

Superlow adhesive decals that say "I park like an idiot" and have a picture of a car way crooked in a spot. Some friends dared me to do it to my own car last night, and I did. It came right off. These things are't normal bumper stickers, not meant to stay on. Let me emphasize that my paint job is NEW, really new, and I am particularly picky, but I took the risk on my own car first, and it came right off. So there is no difference here.

heyitsstock wrote:...personally in large parking lots i dont care if its in the back because its "outta sight outta mind"

I'm with you on this, 100%

heyitsstock wrote:i havent had to deal with smalllot avengers lol
but bro isnt putting stickers on personal cars... destruction of property?

As I said in the long post, these are not destroying anyting, and have no more affect than a flyer under your windshield. The law doesn't care that one is advertizing and one is commentary on parking, or stupid ugly paint job/bodykit, or nice exhaust. The law never makes such distinctions. A cop could still harass me, but there's not a crime in it, or they would be ticketing flyer runners since it falls under the same description.

AND, I also put in that post that apartment complexes sticker for bad (or as they call it incorrect) parking... stickers with preprinted forms on them that they fill out with date, "infraction", and how long you have to do it before you get TOWED. Sometimes it's for something as lame as parking backwards or slightly riding the line, or your car being parked in one space too long (at unassigned complexes). I know, having lived in many of them. And those stickers are a bitch to remove, even WITH a razor. It's not illegal.

Get stuck on the side of the freeway, and have to leave your car.. chances are when you return, there will be an adhesive parking ticket stuck onto your antenna... if they are nice. if they aren't, it will be peeled and plastered on the car.

heyitsstock wrote:i duno if i saw a sticker on my windsheild i would want to see the person who did it... to chat

I'm not sure if you are implying "retribution" (as one person put it) or not, and if you aren't, that would be rare, but if you are, IMO, with no damage done, all you would be doing is getting upset at the wrong person. I know a number of people on here posted one liners, saying, "If you don't park like an idiot, you have nothing to worry about." I've already said I wouldn't do it to just anyone crooked, it would have to be some obvious escalade parked diagonally, or the like.

I'm pretty sure I've answered your questions, both in my first post and now.

heyitsstock wrote:but im an asshole with morals that i occasionally read over

Not sure what the heck you meant there... but whatev

eh i would be pist if some one put something on my car even a flyer

if i knew who did it(sticker) i would grab a 2' piece of vinal and just lay it on the windsheild


but again im an asshole so ehh most people are going to shun me for this
but hey i dont park like jerk so it wont happen to me right



im pretty sure if you place a sticker on someones car and your not a le officer and/or they are not on your property(apartment parking lots) is destruction or property damage or not.....

can anyone clear that debate up on here?

kc2002acr wrote:...I think that you may have some anger issues and need to work on those first before you start pasting stickers on peoples vehicles because of some personal issues.

Is it really necessary to have two different threads for this topic?