2GN.ORG

i just wanted to say thanks to everyone over here that is helpful and supportive when questions are asked. am i the only one that finds the sarcasm and attitude on the other org tiresome? it seems that there are some that feel like they are the end-all-be-all of neons and lecture more than help. for instance. i asked for a solution to my rich a/f problem regarding injectors and fuel pressure regulators. what i got in response from 'ol jeffb was condescension b/c i was using a crane ignition, afx/r pcm and safc instead of ms. there were also comments about my engine build being a 2.2 stroker, etc. it just flat pisses me off. you try to post over there and some are great, but many times the schmucks ruin it. that's why i spend most of my time over here. thanks again all.

why do you think we are all here? And most of us that are here don't go there?

lol that site is a joke....it's just so big that you have all kinds of people. And this site is a tight little community. We are more of a family here.

Ive never been to the other site cause everyone says its a waste of time, all i know is this site is awesome

exactly...if you got a good thing goin, why taste something else? lol

Selling stuff is the only reason I go over there, and even then, it's a haphazard exercise.

yeah the other org is full of a bunch of dicks. As far as 80% of the regulars are concerned, there's only one way to do things, and it's 1G STYLE.

I go there and browse the 2gn section, but thats pretty slow.

I like harassing some of the people, but I don't live for it.

To buy stuff, for me that's it.

ChrisRT wrote:Selling stuff is the only reason I go over there, and even then, it's a haphazard exercise.

amen, to buy stuff and sell stuff thats it, thats pretty much the same thing on srtforums aswell.

SGT BRAD, im suprised that you get flack at all seeing how your a "Go" type of guy the love you guys, i guess they hate everyone...lol

Neons.org:

The equal opportunity Neon haters.

KrackstaR wrote:

ChrisRT wrote:Selling stuff is the only reason I go over there, and even then, it's a haphazard exercise.

amen, to buy stuff and sell stuff thats it, thats pretty much the same thing on srtforums aswell.

SGT BRAD, im suprised that you get flack at all seeing how your a "Go" type of guy the love you guys, i guess they hate everyone...lol

i'm not a 1gn and 2.4, boosted or running ms. heaven forbid i drive anything other than a stripped out beer can. and, Lord knows don't commit the sacriledge of actually wanting a car that turns too instead of just going 1320. i'm just sick that there are guys over there that really know their stuff. if they could just drop the attitude it'd be nice. no wonder so many of the guys that were squared away left. i know catapeed got reamed many times for stating that his long-rod 2.0 made big numbers and was an acceptable dd. bah..they scoffed at him. it's really sad. and here i sit still trying to figure the best way to correct a rich situation and only get "go with ms, you'll never get what you want without it." ahhh...i'm pissed, tired and still figuring this out alone. i don't even drink and i need a beer.

i don't even drink and i need a beer.

SGT BRAD wrote:and here i sit still trying to figure the best way to correct a rich situation and only get "go with ms, you'll never get what you want without it." ahhh...i'm pissed, tired and still figuring this out alone. i don't even drink and i need a beer.

Honestly, they are right in that matter. :-\

The only "correct" way to correct a rich situation is with proper management. Sure, you can get away with an SAFC and stuff for a little while, but, it's not a forever solution to a forever problem.

ChrisRT wrote:

SGT BRAD wrote:and here i sit still trying to figure the best way to correct a rich situation and only get "go with ms, you'll never get what you want without it." ahhh...i'm pissed, tired and still figuring this out alone. i don't even drink and i need a beer.

Honestly, they are right in that matter. :-\

The only "correct" way to correct a rich situation is with proper management. Sure, you can get away with an SAFC and stuff for a little while, but, it's not a forever solution to a forever problem.

yep, and if you understand exactly how ms works and can pay for it as well as come and install it then we are good to go. as for me, i've invested a ton of money and time into getting this installed and ready to run and that's what i intend to do. my goal was to see what could be done with what basically came from the factory without doing anything frankenstein. a stock harness will plug right into everything i've got. btw what exactly did everyone do before ms came along? ummm...pretty much what i'm doing. and it seemed to work well enough. for instance, jeff and all of the other guys over on the other org ran mopar and afx/r pcms for years before making the jump to standalone. therefore, why is it so hard to reply to my requests with useable info if they have the experience and answers. nope, can't do that. if you're not lock stock and barrell in line with what they deem to be "acceptable" then they'd just as soon leave you to blow up a new motor as offer practical solutions. I ALREADY HAVE AN SAFC, AFX/R, ETC. why the crap is it so hard to give solutions that will work with what i've got. geez...

SGT BRAD wrote:what i got in response from 'ol jeffb was condescension b/c i was using a crane ignition, afx/r pcm and safc instead of ms.

that's funny as hell. jeff doesn't even run MS. he uses this Electromotives thing http://www.directignition.com/

MS is not expensive, it is no more expensive than an SAFC and an AF/X-R.

They're trying to help you, as was I, but you just came off like a real jerk with the "well, if you understand it, and can pay for it, come do it" response.

Before thinking others are being ignorant, take a good hard look in the mirror. It's not that they want you to blow a motor or spend more money, its that they want to see you do it correctly and the motor live for a long time.

MS is NOT a hard system to use. Besides, I'd look into an SCT Flash system before I even thought of MS or AF/X-R + SAFC.

Besides, solving a rich condition isn't hard to do with an SAFC. Take the car to a dyno, make pulls and tune via the dynosheet and wideband 02? What more do you want/need to know?

ChrisRT wrote:MS is not expensive, it is no more expensive than an SAFC and an AF/X-R.

They're trying to help you, as was I, but you just came off like a real jerk with the "well, if you understand it, and can pay for it, come do it" response.

Before thinking others are being ignorant, take a good hard look in the mirror. It's not that they want you to blow a motor or spend more money, its that they want to see you do it correctly and the motor live for a long time.

MS is NOT a hard system to use. Besides, I'd look into an SCT Flash system before I even thought of MS or AF/X-R + SAFC.

Besides, solving a rich condition isn't hard to do with an SAFC. Take the car to a dyno, make pulls and tune via the dynosheet and wideband 02? What more do you want/need to know?

i am unable to pull fuel at idle with the safc. it is working correctly, but for some reason, the car is in closed loop at idle. i can pull fuel at wot, but that won't fix the pcm's inability to maintain stoich under part throttle anyway. so i'm still where i was 2 weeks ago when i started this quest.

my question was simple. i'll clarify it somewhat here and try not to come off like a jerk. i already have everything that was mentioned earlier. i am not going megasquirt unless i don't break 200whp. therefore i need to figure out what to do with what i've got and where i am. i am running 24lb/hr accel injectors per darrell cox's recommendations. according to calculations, that is the correct size based on hp estimates, etc. i've already changed the pigtails to bosch ones, and have sent my injectors to amm to help him out with his projects. that leaves me with some options.
1. buy 19lb accel injectors and hope that the duty cycle isn't too much for them and risk running lean.
2. buy 21lb accel injectors and hope that i don't continue with the rich condition.
3. buy an adjustable regulator and drop the fuel psi. but, i haven't gotten clarification as to whether i can do this without a return line. i don't feel like doing the spoolboy mod, etc right now. especially if it's not necessary.
4. replace the stock fuel pressure regulator with one from a 1gn that will drop the pressure to 48psi and lower my lb/hr to about 21lb/hr with the accel injectors that are installed.

as i've stated before, my a/f ratios are in the 10's and i'm fouling plugs. i'm also worried about washing down the cylinder walls with it running this rich. so therefore, with all of that being said, does anyone over here have any ideas or clarifications?

i'm not an engine builder, nor a race car technician. heck, i'm just a shade tree mechanic with a little bit of extra $ in my pocket that allows me to indulge in this hobby. i don't claim to know all of the ins and outs of tuning. i'm learning as i go. this is the first f/i car i've ever built.

if i'm a little miffed at having to defend everything i do on the car then what's the point. i generally like this community better b/c even though there seems to be more experience over on the other org, this isn't the first time i've been snubbed over there. i seem to recall once on the other org i was in a foul mood and smarted off in a thread where someone was rolling on about ridiculous expecatations from bolt-ons, etc. but, that was the only time to my recollection. i almost always try to help others with whatever knowledge i've gleaned from working on the stupid neon.

however, i've seen the same experienced old farts on the other org repeatedly dog, belittle and generally scoff at people when it would be nice if they'd just share some of their info and experience. if i have to explain all of this to this depth then maybe i'm the one with the problem. btw to clarify further, i went crane, afx/r, safc instead of ms for 2 reasons. the first was to see what could be done with essentially stock components. the second was because i have found no one with an n/a running ms. there were no maps available, etc 2 1/2 years ago when i started this build. not that i understand all of the tuning nuances anyway. so that means that i'd have to figure out from square one how to tune using standalone and do it without any help. there isn't anyone here in north alabama that's a resource. in fact the one shop that i did take the car to initially to have the crane installed couldn't figure out how to do it and charged me 300.00 for the mess that they handed back to me. so again, forgive me if i'm an ignorant southern hick that just doesn't get it. i'd love to just get a straight answer that says, "ms would be best, but with your current set-up, "x" would be the most logical and beneficial solution." is that too much to ask? ciao.

The PCM, AFAIK, stays in a closed loop mode at idle and at part throttle. If the SAFC isn't doing the trick, then you need to resort to other things.

I personally think 24lb injectors is to much. I'm making over 260whp with 19lb injectors in a 360 V8, and still dipping into the 11's A/F wise if i don't keep the plugs in check.


I'd go to the dyno, borrow a set of 19's from someone, and see what it says on the dyno. Don't go hog wild on the first pull, just make a short pull and see where the A/F is. If it's decent, tune from there and live with it. If it is to lean, go to 21lbs and go from there.

Messing with fuel pressure, in my eyes, is a bandaid solution. Dropping the fuel pressure should raise the injector duty cycle based on the PCM's needs/wants. If the PCM is saying WE NEED MORE FUEL CAPTAIN!!! then the injectors are going ot try their ass off to deliver it, reguardless of fuel pressure or injector size.

Proper injector size, and proper fuel mapping is the only true solution. Since you aren't able to develop your own fuel mapping, you'll have to chase injector size.

Also, AFAIK, installing a FPR requires a return style fuel system, good luck!

Might I add, why not just go with MS and ITB's Just joshin' ya a little!

good info, thanks. going with 19lb injectors that a buddy has from his mustang. just trying to verify now that they are the same impedence. i think we have high impedence injectors. am i correct? does anyone know what mustangs use? i do know that at least they have the bosch style connector. i'll post this in a new thread in the engine forum. thanks again everyone.

YEAH THIS CONVERSATION LEFT MY THINKING CAPCITY ALONG TIME AGO, I wish i was more engine savy to help you... lol I wish you luck sgtbrad.

SGT BRAD wrote:[i'm not a 1gn and 2.4, boosted or running ms. heaven forbid i drive anything other than a stripped out beer can. and, Lord knows don't commit the sacriledge of actually wanting a car that turns too instead of just going 1320. i'm just sick that there are guys over there that really know their stuff. if they could just drop the attitude it'd be nice. no wonder so many of the guys that were squared away left. i know catapeed got reamed many times for stating that his long-rod 2.0 made big numbers and was an acceptable dd. bah..they scoffed at him. it's really sad. and here i sit still trying to figure the best way to correct a rich situation and only get "go with ms, you'll never get what you want without it." ahhh...i'm pissed, tired and still figuring this out alone. i don't even drink and i need a beer.

You/he/several people here did/are doing something cool, when it comes to cars cool is usually different and there ideas and thoughts are challenged by different.

I would go with the 21lb's because its better to be a little rich and make 195whp than make 214(my est for your car) and blow it up. Many great cars have been blown up by people looking for that last 10hp that they will never use.

Five O motorsports may be able to help you with the impedance question. That's where I got the replacement injectors for my cherokee. IIRC the Jeep ones were the same as the mustang? If that helps at all.

http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/Injector_Sets.asp

I don't think you will run out of fuel with the 19's, but running big injectors without a way to control it will not work. I will be the first to say that running MS opens a whole new can of worms that starts a whole new set of problems, but will fix your current problem. I think running a return line and a regulator is also over kill for an NA setup. My guess would be go back to 19's and hit a dyno or get a wideband to see where you are at, and work from there.

And about neons.org, they are assholes. The thing is their is a wealth of information/experience on that board, but the communication skills are awful. I understand where they are coming from however. Years of "will an electric super charger work" kind of questions get old. Its not really a community at all, its just people throwing in their 2 cents.

You are in a unique situation as in not many people are trying to push the power NA that you are, so its going to be really frustrating some times. I know darrell cox built your motor but running 24's and controlling them with a SAFC was a bad idea.

i've never disagreed with the fact that ms is a better option. it's just that right now it's not an option. i know that the set-up i have can and will work. many have done it before me. there was a guy named xonn over on the other org that was running a 2.0l with 12.5:1 pistons and basically the same set-up as me. he put down 195+hp and still had a little tuning to tweak. so i know it can be done. my plan right now is to get the 1gn regulator which drops my fuel pressure 10psi. by my calculations that'll net me just about 21lb/hr at the injector with my current set-up. if that doesn't work then i'll swap back to the 58psi regulator and go with 19# injectors to see if the a/f is stable. i'm wondering if my obdII reader will give me the duty cycle. i'll have to call and ask.

Why would you switch regulators? That's just creating an extra step for yourself. Swapping injectors takes all of 15 minutes, ya know? Why not start there with the easy thing.

I'd rather have more pressure through a smaller injector then less pressure through a larger injector.

Xonn's car was built by Clay @ Blackdog. The car was running a flashed Kenne Bell ECU, which turned out to be a generic flash and not the best thing for the car. I believe, IIRC, he eventually went with a standalone or sold the car, I can't remember which.

swapping injectors is usually a breeze. however, i have a perrin fuel rail and a direct port nitrous set-up that has a plumbing nightmare that will have to be removed to get at the injectors. swapping the regulator is a 2 min job and costs 40.00. based on fuel delivery calculations; injector 1/ injector 2= pressure 1/ pressure 2 ie: 24lbhr/?=58psi/48psi = ~20lb/hr this option will limit the duty cycle of the injector and also lower the pressure to my nitrous which allows me to run a slightly larger fuel jet thereby decreasing the risk of clogging. i too would prefer the increased atomization associated with the higher fuel pressure, but i don't see any worries about a slightly lower pressure since there are lots of vehicles running the lower pressure with similar injector sizes. not to mention that the swap is a breeze. if it works and i find a bit lean on the top end then i'll bump back up to higher pressure and pick up a set of 21lb/hr injectors. thanks.

Fuel pressure doesn't regulate injector duty cycle, FYI.

http://www.stealth316.com/2-calc-idc.htm

Duty cycle is basically the amount of time the injector is "on" and firing.

ChrisRT wrote:Fuel pressure doesn't regulate injector duty cycle, FYI.

http://www.stealth316.com/2-calc-idc.htm

Duty cycle is basically the amount of time the injector is "on" and firing.

i understand that the pcm controls duty cycle. however, the pcm will always try to make things stoich. if the injector is too small for the application then the pcm will lengthen the duty cycle to compensate. at some point the injector duty cycle will get maxxed out. the only way to compensate at that point is to up the fuel pressure. that's why i said that using a larger injectors with less fuel pressure will decrease the duty cycle on the injectors and change the theoretical lb/hr delivery rate of said injectors. as long as there is good atomization then i think i'm ok. at 48psi with a 1gn regulator i'm not too worried about the fuel spray from the injectors being an issue.

"Tune the nos down and you'll run nines" ~Jesse from the F&F. In all reality, I'd go with Aeromotive FPR, 21lbers and keep the return line. Tune on a dyno with a wide band. You can do it man, just be patient. I give you props on your venture man. Any other questions go ahead a post up. Were here to help.