2GN.ORG

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/17/autos/c ... 2008121719

yikes

that sucks, i mean those people who will have to stay home they have kids rent etc how will they make any money man that gives me a paint in the heart for those guys. just hope that dont happen to me i work for lexus our sales are still ok but just know how they can buy car when the economy is fu** up and these lexus are going like nothing its amazing!! i mean its worst but not as bad like other company's are. i guess when u rich there no bad times for some of them!!!

Any Union worker there gets full pay and everything just like they are working. Not a bad gig for them...they get a month off and still get paid so they can do what they want for the holidays.

rOniN wrote:Any Union worker there gets full pay and everything just like they are working. Not a bad gig for them...they get a month off and still get paid so they can do what they want for the holidays.

i agree what i mean is the ones who have already been laidoff like many have from ford around south florida

rOniN wrote:Any Union worker there gets full pay and everything just like they are working.

and then the companies wonder why they are in trouble...

i dont know what it would take to get rid of the unions but that would seem to be the first logical step if you want your company to survive...

the unions wont agree to pay cuts... so get rid of the unions.. then if people want jobs they will have to leave the unions and work for a rate that the company sets.. either way it really doesnt matter .. if people wont leave the union and work for a lower rate the company wont be in business... but if the business cant go on paying the rates that the unions want they wont be in business either..

fuck a bail out. . they got themselves into trouble its their problem to get themselves out.. when it comes down to it nobody NEEDS to have american made cars .. theres no NEED to bail these companies out. businesses fail every day... why should this be any different.

stop producing cars and limit the business to parts for existing cars .. that will end this dilemma.. and once the last american made car in existence goes to the junk yard, say goodbye to these companies..

rOniN wrote:Any Union worker there gets full pay and everything just like they are working. Not a bad gig for them...they get a month off and still get paid so they can do what they want for the holidays.

After the usual holiday shutdown pay, are you sure that workers receive the full pay amount and won't have to apply for unemployment pay? That's the way it was for Chrysler workers when I was a kid in the 80's.

jT wrote:[.. when it comes down to it nobody NEEDS to have american made cars .. theres no NEED to bail these companies out. businesses fail every day... why should this be any different.

stop producing cars and limit the business to parts for existing cars .. that will end this dilemma.. and once the last american made car in existence goes to the junk yard, say goodbye to these companies..

Okay, you have my invitation to address the former workers in Kokomo and Marion, IN when the plants here close and then you can turn out the lights in both cities. You know, I've been pretty civil in the threads about what is happening to the US car makers but some people on this board are pretty cold-hearted and I may have to leave the room soon as I don't know how much longer I can remain polite after some of these comments.

Businesses do fail everyday, but car manufacturers are a bit different than your average strip mall store. To say that we don't need american cars is just ignorant, possibly the dumbest thing I've heard anybody say in a long time.

Yeah, let's not support american businesses and just let the country go to shit. Let's all buy a fucking daewoo and go sit in line at the soup kitchen.

This is what I'm going to do:

I'm going to lock this thread and the other thread for a couple of days. Everyone needs to calm down. I completely understand this is a very sensitive issue for a lot of people. But we don't need a big ol fight going on. So this is locked until further notice.

Unlocked

yeah so anyways.. it's not ignorant or dumb.. and the country is already shit... so...

where are your american electronics? american clothing? the list goes on.. we all seem to get by just fine without a MADE IN THE USA stamp. cars would be no different.

but the latest headlines seem to be saying that they are getting their multi billon dollar loan .. so all the topics about the car companies can die now, since they arent.

Yes, the country is already in shit, but there people, and companies we can blame for that...

Where are the electronics? Considering this country was built on a foundation of labor, and not technology, we really don't have place in that sector. Sure we design a lot of electronics, and their coresponding technologies, we are more a laborous country. This country was founded by men who built the railroads, worked on the line building car, mining coal...

But as far your ignorant attitude towards the U.S. car companies, do you not realize how many people/companies in the U.S. alone depend on the big three? I hope and pray that we never find out, me, my father, my two uncles, and handfull of close friends and family all work for some company that has something to do with one of the big three. I will not read this ignorance anymore, there are too many uneducated people, listening to the biased and entertaining media, making uninformed opinions.

I'm an Indian that was born and raised in engliand. I'm technically not American. When you say that the big three shouldn't get money and that we have no need to American cars, well, thats just ignorant, un-american, and terrorist-like. You are basically saying that American should annilate itself and let people die and starve death. You are not American, I am. I refuse to buy a foreign car, I try to buy products that are made in America, I do my best to support the companies that support me, that support my lifestyle... I am more American than you will ever be.

/rant

BTW Please don't take this personally, just do some research on the subject. My father and I work directly for the big three, so we depend on them.

I will however agree on a couple things, managment was/is horrable, not only for us little people, but major management staff overlooking certain sectors of the company. Overhead costs was/are still high, some people get paid too little, and some get paid too much for what they do. Everyone has taken paycut reductions, but the right people still have not been asked too. The companies need a major overhaul, peoples heads and egos got too big, and obviously, when the times are good, nobody really thinks about the future, or asks the questions "what if..."

Like I said, don't take this personally, I am venting, just as you are. Just do some research, its all a chain effect. I would like to say "you will see" if one of the three fail, then the shit would really hit the floor, for you, me, and everyone else. But I don't want you to, I don't want, no one wants to see that happen...

~Amit

Midnight_Rider wrote:Okay, you have my invitation to address the former workers in Kokomo and Marion, IN when the plants here close and then you can turn out the lights in both cities. You know, I've been pretty civil in the threads about what is happening to the US car makers but some people on this board are pretty cold-hearted and I may have to leave the room soon as I don't know how much longer I can remain polite after some of these comments.

How is saying unions are bad cold-hearted? They are partially responsible for things that are going on today. Besides the gov't unions are the hardest place to get fired from, unless you do something pretty stupid you keep your job. All this boo-hooing about union people getting "laid off" is tugging at my shoe strings when there are non union people losing their jobs faster and don't make nearly as much as union members for the same job. Like I said previously unions are the T-Rex out of time, they did things in the labor industry that were need but unfortunately they have become too political because they see that their time is coming to a halt and the only thing that will keep them around is political mojo that is why many in the unions were forced to vote one way or the other in elections.

03_SXT wrote:When you say that the big three shouldn't get money and that we have no need to American cars, well, thats just ignorant, un-american, and terrorist-like. You are basically saying that American should annilate itself and let people die and starve death. You are not American, I am. I refuse to buy a foreign car, I try to buy products that are made in America, I do my best to support the companies that support me, that support my lifestyle... I am more American than you will ever be.

dont take this personally either, but you are more jew than american because you equate criticism of something as unamerican and terrorist-like thats the same BS as the jews calling you anti-semitic when you criticize something/anything israel does.

its not unamerican to be realistic. however it is american to say whatever the hell i want...

these car companies dug their own holes, why should the tax payers bail them out? if they fail then they fail. if people lose jobs they can get in the unemployment line and collect welfare like the rest of the poor slobs in the country, i think that would actually be cheaper for us than loaning out $17.4 billion that realistically will never be paid back by the companies.

then mcdonalds can build a new joint on every corner of detroit and elsewhere and all these out of work car factory button pushers can work a fryolator for $8/hr rather than $50/hr.. in both cases machines are doing most of the work so is it really a big change.

1) get rid of the unions
2) cut down on the number of vehicle lines being produced.. 1 compact, 1 mid size, 1 full size, 1 suv should suffice.. who needs so many choices..
3) produce cars on an order by order basis in the configuration that the buyer wants.. not 30000000000 cars to fill a dealership lot.. shit, i'd want a car fresh off the line anyways, ordered to my specifications with the options i want.. not some pre-built that i have to choose this or that..

those right there would serve to keep the companies afloat without a bailout. how about they take some responsibility to cut their own operational costs before they are given money to proceed as usual.. and in a year or two they are back asking for more.

Gramps,
That was what all the news was saying. I haven't read any primary sources but that is the gist of what the news people were getting at. I'm not sure what angle the media was working for those stories either.

JT - do you know how much America spends of welfare as of right now? The Washington post said, " There was $199 billion for payments to the poor, including the earned-income tax credit and food stamps" in 2006.

From wikipedia 2008
$324 billion (+1.8%) - Unemployment/Welfare

Now with 3 million workers out of a job double those numbers...that will rival defense spending. US will spend more on health care for illegal immigrants than it would on bailing out the US car companies.


Anywho....I do agree with you about numbers 1, 2 for the most part. . Number 3 is interesting but not possible.

They do need to be restructured and with out unions their efficiency could be better than it is currently.

Say hi to Michael for me.

rOniN wrote: Number 3 is interesting but not possible.

why do you say its not possible?

sure it might take a little bit of work to implement, and maybe even some design/manufacturing changes to the car itself, but in the end it might get people to buy more and offer a better, more unique product.

if i want a sunroof but not a premium sound system (one car i was building online was like this, and most manufacturers were the same for various items, it was an all or nothing package) and both are only included in a package.. well i might look elsewhere for a car with a sunroof.. but if i could order a car with a sunroof and no sound system then ill buy it from manufacturer X

i even saw some ridiculous restrictions like if i wanted exterior color X then the interior color could not be Y .. how do the two even relate? thats absurd.

change buying a car to the same as ordering a pizza.. and cut out the dealerships..

jT wrote:
dont take this personally either, but you are more jew than american because you equate criticism of something as unamerican and terrorist-like thats the same BS as the jews calling you anti-semitic when you criticize something/anything israel does.

Are you using Jew as an insult? Just curious

Considering how personal some of the posts in this thread (sand related ones) have become, I am going to leave this be. I have talked myself hoarse in the last few weeks trying to explain things to people who didn't grow up in factory towns and I'm just tired of trying. Y'all believe what you want to believe, I'm done.

bone-yard-racing wrote:

jT wrote:
dont take this personally either, but you are more jew than american because you equate criticism of something as unamerican and terrorist-like thats the same BS as the jews calling you anti-semitic when you criticize something/anything israel does.

Are you using Jew as an insult? Just curious

If so, that is highly inappropriate.

bone-yard-racing wrote: Are you using Jew as an insult? Just curious

using it as a comparison.. but you prove my point .. talk about jew and its automatically got to be an insult... tell me, are you jew?

jT wrote:

03_SXT wrote:When you say that the big three shouldn't get money and that we have no need to American cars, well, thats just ignorant, un-american, and terrorist-like. You are basically saying that American should annilate itself and let people die and starve death. You are not American, I am. I refuse to buy a foreign car, I try to buy products that are made in America, I do my best to support the companies that support me, that support my lifestyle... I am more American than you will ever be.

dont take this personally either, but you are more jew than american because you equate criticism of something as unamerican and terrorist-like thats the same BS as the jews calling you anti-semitic when you criticize something/anything israel does.

its not unamerican to be realistic. however it is american to say whatever the hell i want...

these car companies dug their own holes, why should the tax payers bail them out? if they fail then they fail. if people lose jobs they can get in the unemployment line and collect welfare like the rest of the poor slobs in the country, i think that would actually be cheaper for us than loaning out $17.4 billion that realistically will never be paid back by the companies.

then mcdonalds can build a new joint on every corner of detroit and elsewhere and all these out of work car factory button pushers can work a fryolator for $8/hr rather than $50/hr.. in both cases machines are doing most of the work so is it really a big change.

1) get rid of the unions
2) cut down on the number of vehicle lines being produced.. 1 compact, 1 mid size, 1 full size, 1 suv should suffice.. who needs so many choices..
3) produce cars on an order by order basis in the configuration that the buyer wants.. not 30000000000 cars to fill a dealership lot.. shit, i'd want a car fresh off the line anyways, ordered to my specifications with the options i want.. not some pre-built that i have to choose this or that..

those right there would serve to keep the companies afloat without a bailout. how about they take some responsibility to cut their own operational costs before they are given money to proceed as usual.. and in a year or two they are back asking for more.

First of all, how is it logical that you are comparing a car company to mcdonalds? totally different business. hope you know that. not going to get into explaining why cause i hope your not the ignorant.

Second-

1 of 3 big 3 shut down= less american made cars= less money for government (less tax collected)= more money we will have to barrow= more tax we have to pay= less money you will see on your paycheck= you need to open your eyes and think about somethings.

you live in america any american major company (ex. chrysler) shuts down you will feel the affects of that.

are you going to say the same thing about walmart? started in the US.

/rant

I live in baltimore where the unions are starting to bleed it dry. The GM plant gone, Beth Steel gone, getting work in the city with a non union Electrical/Communications company difficult. The union car business is going the way of a lot of manufacturing jobs because it cost too much to maintain the workforce, eventually the product sucks like now, or the company ends up looking for an out whether its overseas or another state. Is it tough on small town USA but so is every other economic hardship, smalltown USA does not have the flexibility to weather economic downturns that is a fact propping them up is not going to solve anything.

the local assembly plant that builds the Liberty and Nitro was scheduled to be shut down until the end of Jan, even before this was announced.

jT wrote:

bone-yard-racing wrote: Are you using Jew as an insult? Just curious

using it as a comparison.. but you prove my point .. talk about jew and its automatically got to be an insult... tell me, are you jew?

I believe you meant to ask "are you Jewish?"

Two things...Since this is a discussion about Chrysler's future, please leave the OT religious comments out. And if you wish to continue questioning another members religious beliefs, take it to PMs.

jT wrote:

bone-yard-racing wrote: Are you using Jew as an insult? Just curious

using it as a comparison.. but you prove my point .. talk about jew and its automatically got to be an insult... tell me, are you jew?

This is highly inappropriate and will not be tolerated on this site.

Back on topic. I have mixed feelings about unions right now as well. Both my dad and Grandfather were in the UAW at Delphi plants so I've obviously benefited from them though.

What scares me is the effect that a possible extended Chrysler shutdown will have 2nd and 3rd tier manufacturers. I work for Magna Inc, in their only non automotive division (Optera: touchscreens), and my buddy works at one of their mirror plants. Magna is actually the largest supplier in North America. Our two plants were put on mandatory 3 week vacation.

The possible butterfly effect from one of the big 3 going down scares the crap out of me. Michigan economy is already in the crapper, with the highest unemployment rate in 15yr.

This whole situation affects so many other companies and regional economies. These are not the good times

I think something needs to be said, regarding Unions.

For the record, I am not anti-Union (if anything, I am Pro-Union).
But I do think the Unions need to change their approach..... both to save themselves, and the Auto Manufacturers.

Unions have been very important, in the evolution of worker's rights, and improving working conditions, work hours, and health..... not just improving pay.

The people who say that Unions are obsolete, or should be broken, are wrong.
*HOWEVER*, that being said, I think that the Unions should move their focus away from going for "maximum" pay...... and shift focus towards preserving jobs, and protecting working conditions and worker's rights.
There is no more money falling from the sky, not anymore.

Unions can still have an incredibly important role to play....
If they want to continue to play an important role, and have a workforce left to protect, they will have to "update the game plan" and change their focus & strategy.

If we lose the Unions, workers will end up losing rights, healthy working conditions, sane working hours, and so many 'other' little things that they have been fighting for.....not just pay, and jobs.
Many of the decent working conditions that people have today, were fought for by Unions.

If you go back and do some reading on the subject..... and find out how HORRIBLE working conditions were back in the 1800's..... people will find out that is the whole reason that Unions were created, in the first place.

- Nick

but I don't think that the emphasis has been on "maximum pay" for quite a while. The UAW's focus on preserving jobs was already in place when I was in the Delco plants in Kokomo back in the 80's.

Number 3 is interesting but not possible.

Why is this not possible? That's how we build at Toyota...every car we build has been bought and paid for, (by a dealership, based on an order from a customer). There's no logic in building more cars than are being purchased. Why else can you find acres and acres of property across north america full of unsold brand new cars?