Swaybar theory discussion

Have some questions about how to achive better handling and stopping power using different springs, upgrading to coilovers, questions on swaybars, bushings, different rotors, pads, ect... Having any steering problems or questions about steering racks, tie rods, tie rod ends, ect... ask these questions here.
Post Reply
User avatar
Baal
2GN Member
Posts: 1079
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 6:42 pm
Location: Mexico

Swaybar theory discussion

Post by Baal » Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:13 pm

What would be the disadvantage in performance of an extremely thick swaybar, for explanation purpouses lets say one that doesnt twists at all, so CERO body roll.
Rally Neon Mod List:
2.5 direct exhaust, PVC CAI, PT clutch, Crane 14, 5point seats & harnesses, 8 point FIA roll cage, AF/X race ecu, Dropzone coilovers, Hotchkis swaybars, Crane valve springs, Autogage 5" tach shiftlite, .020" head shaving, custom long tube header, wilwood 12" Big Brake Kit.

Stonebender
2GN Member
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 8:38 pm
Location: Scumburg
Contact:

Post by Stonebender » Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:37 pm

The car would have a very uncomfortable ride, and would get unstable in high-speed, bumpy turns. Or, at a racetrack, the car would become unstable if you ran the inside wheel on the curb in a turn.

An anti-roll bar must compromise between being stiff enough to reduce body roll, but compliant enough to prevent "crosstalk" from one side to the other.

Reducing body roll comes from a combination of proper spring rates, and proper anti-roll bar diameter.

User avatar
Diablo0
2GN.org Owner/Admin
Posts: 12574
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:20 pm
Location: Greenville, SC
Contact:

Post by Diablo0 » Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:48 pm

I'd have to agree with Stonebender... some body roll is needed to help with weight transfer and keep the car stable through turns.
-Jason
Black '02 Neon R/T | White '02 Neon R/T - SRT-4 Engine Swap
Image
^^^ no, that isn't what I look like haha
Try not to become a man of success but rather to become a man of value. - Albert Einstein

Stonebender
2GN Member
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 8:38 pm
Location: Scumburg
Contact:

Post by Stonebender » Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:51 pm

Well, zero body roll would be ideal on a perfectly smooth surface. This is why most karts have no suspension at all.

User avatar
Diablo0
2GN.org Owner/Admin
Posts: 12574
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:20 pm
Location: Greenville, SC
Contact:

Post by Diablo0 » Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:48 pm

Here's a nice little article I just found to help in this discussion...

http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handling/h ... roll.shtml

To quote part of it...
The anti-roll bar reduces body roll to keep the suspension geometry, and ultimately the tire, parallel with the road. Stiffer bars reduce body roll more, but too stiff a bar can deteriorate independent suspension performance, and ultimately cause an inside tire to lift off the ground during hard cornering.

The anti-roll bar can also be a major tuning element in reducing excessive understeer or oversteer. Used incorrectly it can also cause it.
-Jason
Black '02 Neon R/T | White '02 Neon R/T - SRT-4 Engine Swap
Image
^^^ no, that isn't what I look like haha
Try not to become a man of success but rather to become a man of value. - Albert Einstein

User avatar
Baal
2GN Member
Posts: 1079
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 6:42 pm
Location: Mexico

Post by Baal » Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:04 am

Stonebender wrote:Well, zero body roll would be ideal on a perfectly smooth surface. This is why most karts have no suspension at all.
i thinks its more because of the cost :)
Rally Neon Mod List:
2.5 direct exhaust, PVC CAI, PT clutch, Crane 14, 5point seats & harnesses, 8 point FIA roll cage, AF/X race ecu, Dropzone coilovers, Hotchkis swaybars, Crane valve springs, Autogage 5" tach shiftlite, .020" head shaving, custom long tube header, wilwood 12" Big Brake Kit.

User avatar
03sxt
Former Jr. Admin
Posts: 11389
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 10:53 am
Location: Conneaut, Ohio
Contact:

Post by 03sxt » Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:21 am

Baal wrote:
Stonebender wrote:Well, zero body roll would be ideal on a perfectly smooth surface. This is why most karts have no suspension at all.
i thinks its more because of the cost :)
And maybe the EXTREMELY low center of gravity?

nodestiny
2GN Member
Posts: 631
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:00 pm
Contact:

Post by nodestiny » Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:53 am

So... is the hotchkis setup a bad idea? They are i beleive the largest out there... but it seems that 99% of the owners are happy with them! Any ideas?
NoDestiny: 2004 SXT Silver MTx: CAI, Mag Intake, Mag header, Custom made mufflers, Grounding kit, Mopar STS, boogers, Eibach springs, Rear SRT4 struts, 29mm + 24mm hotchkis sways, MPx UPD, Street Prothane MM, P-werks rear strut tower bar, Lots of fun goodies inside, see WWW

Drvr02RT
2GN Member
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 11:48 pm
Location: Warren, MI

Post by Drvr02RT » Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:46 pm

I would say they are a great idea...especially if you autox. The rear bar has two settings, street and race. When I bought mine I had the rear set on street and then when I switched my struts out I changed it to race. On the race setting the backend does like to get a little slide happy on wet pavement but nothing to bad. (could also be my cheap tires).
'02 Silver R/T
'04 SRT Swap
Stage 2 WGA
----18psi----
AGP Dogbones
Boogers
Mopar Lowering Springs
Hotchkis Sway Bars
Koni's

nodestiny
2GN Member
Posts: 631
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:00 pm
Contact:

Post by nodestiny » Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:09 am

So anything larger than the Hotchkis could easily be too much?
NoDestiny: 2004 SXT Silver MTx: CAI, Mag Intake, Mag header, Custom made mufflers, Grounding kit, Mopar STS, boogers, Eibach springs, Rear SRT4 struts, 29mm + 24mm hotchkis sways, MPx UPD, Street Prothane MM, P-werks rear strut tower bar, Lots of fun goodies inside, see WWW

User avatar
tamadrumr88
2GN Member
Posts: 2318
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:50 pm
Location: lehigh valley pa

Post by tamadrumr88 » Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:56 pm

id have to vote against the hotchkis for auto-x.... they serve VERY well in the road-racing seen but the 29mm front bar is simply too thick for auto-x.... even with the 24mm rear, the car plows through every corner regardless of gas/brake techniques.... i mean, you CAN get the back end to carve through nicely but it requires a quick throw of the wheel in the opposite direction before you approach the turn (almost approaching FWD drifting). otherwise the car just plows. aside from nearly 0% body roll from the srt springs and hotchkis sways, i actually think my car was quicker (but not necessarily more controllable) through the course on my stock 22m f/19mm rear sways..... the hotchkis sways belong on a track, not a parking lot :)

User avatar
Baal
2GN Member
Posts: 1079
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 6:42 pm
Location: Mexico

Post by Baal » Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:15 pm

Agreed, you wont "bend" a hotchkis in a parking lot, for that you need a lot more momentum than what you can get in such an small place.
Rally Neon Mod List:
2.5 direct exhaust, PVC CAI, PT clutch, Crane 14, 5point seats & harnesses, 8 point FIA roll cage, AF/X race ecu, Dropzone coilovers, Hotchkis swaybars, Crane valve springs, Autogage 5" tach shiftlite, .020" head shaving, custom long tube header, wilwood 12" Big Brake Kit.

User avatar
tamadrumr88
2GN Member
Posts: 2318
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:50 pm
Location: lehigh valley pa

Post by tamadrumr88 » Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:49 pm

tamadrumr88 wrote:....they serve VERY well in the road-racing seen but the 29mm front bar is simply too thick for auto-x....
i wrote 'seen' instead of 'scene' whoops BAN ME grammer patrol

nodestiny
2GN Member
Posts: 631
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:00 pm
Contact:

Post by nodestiny » Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:31 pm

So what would be the best sway setup for just fun driving?
NoDestiny: 2004 SXT Silver MTx: CAI, Mag Intake, Mag header, Custom made mufflers, Grounding kit, Mopar STS, boogers, Eibach springs, Rear SRT4 struts, 29mm + 24mm hotchkis sways, MPx UPD, Street Prothane MM, P-werks rear strut tower bar, Lots of fun goodies inside, see WWW

User avatar
Frizbe
2GN Member
Posts: 2984
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:41 pm
Location: Denver, CO
Contact:

Post by Frizbe » Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:43 pm

nodestiny wrote:So what would be the best sway setup for just fun driving?
on an SXT, anything, unless you've aleardy got a sway bar. I'd have to say though from the looks of it, the 19mm (R/T)rear and probly the 22mm (R/T)Front.
BTW what is the SXT's front sway bar diameter?
Justin- I have nothing but smart ass remarks to add.
:-s
Fire_Hippo wrote:Frizbe, you rock my socks.
- Jeff's girlfriend
Image

User avatar
tamadrumr88
2GN Member
Posts: 2318
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:50 pm
Location: lehigh valley pa

Post by tamadrumr88 » Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:51 pm

afaik, you sxt guys dont have the tabs on your rear struts to mount a rear sway. you can buy the kit from vitor, but your have to swap your struts so they face forward, to be able to mount a rear sway (without getting aftermarket struts).... or you could buy acr or r/t struts if you like the stock ride

otherwise, youre only going to be able to go with a bigger front bar (which id recommend, to a certain extent, because of not having a rear sway.

your options for front swaybar are:

stay stock (anything below r/t): 17mm
r/t and acr: 22mm
srt4: 24mm
gt cruiser: 26mm


thats stock, you can also choose from a multitude of aftermarket front bars including the progress 24 and 27mm sways, hotchkis 29mm (hollow) front (too bad you cant order front/rear seperately), etc

you could always use a rear strut bar (since you cant mount a rear sway bar) and step up to maybe the r/t, srt, or gt cruiser front sway bar - any of which can be picked up for less than $85. that way you dont kill your wallet but you still get a nice improvement over stock.

User avatar
Frizbe
2GN Member
Posts: 2984
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:41 pm
Location: Denver, CO
Contact:

Post by Frizbe » Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:27 pm

tamadrumr88 wrote:afaik, you sxt guys dont have the tabs on your rear struts to mount a rear sway.
uhhu
tamadrumr88 wrote:you can buy the kit from vitor,
cool didn't know that.
tamadrumr88 wrote:stay stock (anything below r/t): 17mm
r/t and acr: 22mm
srt4: 24mm
gt cruiser: 26mm
Thank you.


BTW aftermarket struts are my next PLANED mod, weather it happens that way or not we'll see.
Justin- I have nothing but smart ass remarks to add.
:-s
Fire_Hippo wrote:Frizbe, you rock my socks.
- Jeff's girlfriend
Image

rice_eater
2GN Member
Posts: 1521
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:25 pm
Location: calgary

Post by rice_eater » Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:12 pm

if you have the rear tabs, going with srt bars is the best bang for the buck...24mm front, 17mm rear...picked mine up for $80 canadian (60US) with mounting brakets and bushings (srt guys just throw this crap away when they upgrade). otherwise just a big front will make a real nice difference. just get yourself some stiffer springs in the rear if you dont have the tabs on your struts

User avatar
tamadrumr88
2GN Member
Posts: 2318
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:50 pm
Location: lehigh valley pa

Post by tamadrumr88 » Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:13 pm

i dont think id advise JUST the 24mm front... look at it this way... i picked up srt springs (did the work myself) AND got an four-wheel alignment for a grand total of $110, get a rear strut brace for $30-$60, and the srt front bar for about $30

so there you go... under $200

srt springs(175lb/in F, 125lb/in R.... any stock 2g has 150lb/in F, 120lb/in R) so you get a nice spring rate increase (and it dropped my r/t .25" in the front and .75" in the rear)

rear strut brace

24mm srt front sway bar




oh yeah, and DONT EVER buy the 'mopar' sway bar kit... its such a rip... all it is is the gt cruiser 26mm front swaybar, and acr/rt 19mm rear swaybar. they charge ~$250 when you can pick up both of those for under $80 total

hotchkis all the way!

User avatar
Baal
2GN Member
Posts: 1079
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 6:42 pm
Location: Mexico

Post by Baal » Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:39 pm

is there anything Mopar that isnt such a rip? ;)
Rally Neon Mod List:
2.5 direct exhaust, PVC CAI, PT clutch, Crane 14, 5point seats & harnesses, 8 point FIA roll cage, AF/X race ecu, Dropzone coilovers, Hotchkis swaybars, Crane valve springs, Autogage 5" tach shiftlite, .020" head shaving, custom long tube header, wilwood 12" Big Brake Kit.

User avatar
tamadrumr88
2GN Member
Posts: 2318
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:50 pm
Location: lehigh valley pa

Post by tamadrumr88 » Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:12 pm

neons arent a rip... all you have to do is buy one thats two months old an you can pick it up for 1/3 of what the original purchase price was :)

User avatar
Frizbe
2GN Member
Posts: 2984
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:41 pm
Location: Denver, CO
Contact:

Post by Frizbe » Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 am

rice_eater wrote:if you have the rear tabs, going with srt bars is the best bang for the buck...24mm front, 17mm rear...picked mine up for $80 canadian (60US) with mounting brakets and bushings (srt guys just throw this crap away when they upgrade). otherwise just a big front will make a real nice difference. just get yourself some stiffer springs in the rear if you dont have the tabs on your struts
uhh.. no.
The best bang for the buck would be a GT Cruiser Front (26mm) and an R/T rear (19mm)
Oh and jst installing stiffer springs in the back, while in theory doing the same thing as a bigger bar, would probly hurt more than help. You can't get consistant spring rates, and for that matter the lower the car the stiffer the overall suspension is, lowering the back more than the front effectivly increases the rear spring rate, at which point you can't tell the real spring rate, making them detrimental to the handling, because you can't match them to anything else in the suspension.

EDIT: BTW the "best" street/track set-up wpuld most likely be as follows:
Stock SRT springs
Tockito or KYB adj. shocks
Hotckis anti-sway bars
really any rear strut bar, I would look at the P-Werks bar
Mopar rear tension bar thingys (Those $50 bars for the rear suspension)
Urethane bushings all around.
Justin- I have nothing but smart ass remarks to add.
:-s
Fire_Hippo wrote:Frizbe, you rock my socks.
- Jeff's girlfriend
Image

nodestiny
2GN Member
Posts: 631
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:00 pm
Contact:

Post by nodestiny » Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:27 am

MY stock SXT sway bar is 22mm (digital caliper measured!).
NoDestiny: 2004 SXT Silver MTx: CAI, Mag Intake, Mag header, Custom made mufflers, Grounding kit, Mopar STS, boogers, Eibach springs, Rear SRT4 struts, 29mm + 24mm hotchkis sways, MPx UPD, Street Prothane MM, P-werks rear strut tower bar, Lots of fun goodies inside, see WWW

User avatar
tamadrumr88
2GN Member
Posts: 2318
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:50 pm
Location: lehigh valley pa

Post by tamadrumr88 » Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:16 pm

no, but if thats the case than you have an acr/rt front sway bar

stock fronts:
se, es/sxt: 17mm
acr/rt: 22mm
srt: 24mm
gt cruiser: 26mm

User avatar
Baal
2GN Member
Posts: 1079
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 6:42 pm
Location: Mexico

Post by Baal » Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:52 am

tamadrumr88 wrote:neons arent a rip... all you have to do is buy one thats two months old an you can pick it up for 1/3 of what the original purchase price was :)
you know what i mean bitch :D
Rally Neon Mod List:
2.5 direct exhaust, PVC CAI, PT clutch, Crane 14, 5point seats & harnesses, 8 point FIA roll cage, AF/X race ecu, Dropzone coilovers, Hotchkis swaybars, Crane valve springs, Autogage 5" tach shiftlite, .020" head shaving, custom long tube header, wilwood 12" Big Brake Kit.

nodestiny
2GN Member
Posts: 631
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:00 pm
Contact:

Post by nodestiny » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:36 am

tamadrumr88 wrote:no, but if thats the case than you have an acr/rt front sway bar

stock fronts:
se, es/sxt: 17mm
acr/rt: 22mm
srt: 24mm
gt cruiser: 26mm
well, it came stock with the car brand new off the lot and labeled an SXT. I will double check with the digital calipers, but the total size was 22mm when i checked. Maybe they changed it up in 03 or 04?
NoDestiny: 2004 SXT Silver MTx: CAI, Mag Intake, Mag header, Custom made mufflers, Grounding kit, Mopar STS, boogers, Eibach springs, Rear SRT4 struts, 29mm + 24mm hotchkis sways, MPx UPD, Street Prothane MM, P-werks rear strut tower bar, Lots of fun goodies inside, see WWW

User avatar
tamadrumr88
2GN Member
Posts: 2318
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:50 pm
Location: lehigh valley pa

Post by tamadrumr88 » Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:50 pm

Baal wrote:
tamadrumr88 wrote:neons arent a rip... all you have to do is buy one thats two months old an you can pick it up for 1/3 of what the original purchase price was :)
you know what i mean bitch :D
i know. bitch. :) im just jealous of your 14 cam
nodestiny wrote: well, it came stock with the car brand new off the lot and labeled an SXT. I will double check with the digital calipers, but the total size was 22mm when i checked. Maybe they changed it up in 03 or 04?
im not saying youre wrong, im simply stating that the 22mm front was 'intended' for the acr/rt models.... it couldve just been another "dealer add-on"

nodestiny
2GN Member
Posts: 631
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:00 pm
Contact:

Post by nodestiny » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:28 pm

tamadrumr88 wrote:
Baal wrote:
tamadrumr88 wrote:neons arent a rip... all you have to do is buy one thats two months old an you can pick it up for 1/3 of what the original purchase price was :)
you know what i mean bitch :D
i know. bitch. :) im just jealous of your 14 cam
nodestiny wrote: well, it came stock with the car brand new off the lot and labeled an SXT. I will double check with the digital calipers, but the total size was 22mm when i checked. Maybe they changed it up in 03 or 04?
im not saying youre wrong, im simply stating that the 22mm front was 'intended' for the acr/rt models.... it couldve just been another "dealer add-on"
I know about 10 people with the SXT... maybe ill check theirs just to document who has what... and if there is variation, ill write the date of their car's manufacture down. Who knows!
NoDestiny: 2004 SXT Silver MTx: CAI, Mag Intake, Mag header, Custom made mufflers, Grounding kit, Mopar STS, boogers, Eibach springs, Rear SRT4 struts, 29mm + 24mm hotchkis sways, MPx UPD, Street Prothane MM, P-werks rear strut tower bar, Lots of fun goodies inside, see WWW

Post Reply

Return to “Suspension, Steering & Brakes”