Anyone use brake ducts similar to these?

Have some questions about how to achive better handling and stopping power using different springs, upgrading to coilovers, questions on swaybars, bushings, different rotors, pads, ect... Having any steering problems or questions about steering racks, tie rods, tie rod ends, ect... ask these questions here.
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my87csx481
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Anyone use brake ducts similar to these?

Post by my87csx481 » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:35 pm

Or these specific ones? I'm thinking of trying to convert them for my SXT with spacers (to clear the anti-roll bar). Thoughts? Opinions?

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Available (and pic borrowed) from here: http://new.minimania.com/part/NMB4000/P ... -COOPER--S
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jrumann59
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Post by jrumann59 » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:23 pm

Why, Neons have always had over engineered brakes. Unless you are doing AutoX or endurance racing I see absolutely no reason to use this. On top of that it will add drag and make your car slower.
bone-yard-racing wrote:
Remind him of two things for the mustang:
Slow in=Fast out
Fast in=Ambulance out
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Post by my87csx481 » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:51 pm

Car is used for track days/time trials....and doubles as a work commuter. My stock rotors have 1000's of heat fractures from daily driving. The racing set is just as bad, or worse.

One time, I even created a burned/ashed section on the phenolic pistons. Here is a pic of the Hawk HP+ pad that burned the piston (note the bent backing plate):
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Last time at the track, I burnt the rubber dust boots. I'll probably dedicate a set of calipers for track use and pull the boots out.

I have found Carbotech XP12's to work really well for me, for track use. Zero fade. Aggressive stopping power. Rotors still heat fracture very badly. I need to do something. Expecting less from my brakes is a last resort. So, I am willing to sacrifice a little drag for more cooling.
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Post by jrumann59 » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:55 pm

Then for your application it would work. I do not understand how your rotors are getting so hot when DD unless you are panic stopping or you have a dragging caliper. What rotors are you using?
bone-yard-racing wrote:
Remind him of two things for the mustang:
Slow in=Fast out
Fast in=Ambulance out
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Post by my87csx481 » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:20 pm

I tend to drive aggressively on the street. Often, I am out in the sticks. Not a lot of traffic, or cops. Twisty roads. I'm addicted to adrenaline. Not exactly responsible adult behavior I know, but....I could be doing much, much worse things than bouncing off the speed limiter several times daily.

Calipers are not hanging. I've had this problem since day one. Owned the car since brand new. I'm on my 3rd or 4th set (at least) of brand new Mopar calipers. Cooked rotors with all calipers. 170,000 miles. Wheels spin with very little resistance when the car is off ground and in neutral. The inboard Carbotech racing pad does not have a piston clip. When driving over bumps, I can here the pads rattling around. I can also rattle the pads by hand after compressing and releasing the brake pedal. I don't believe anything is bound up. Also, pistons compress fairly easily. I use a flimsy screw driver jammed inbetween the rotor fins to initially compress to remove the caliper. Channel locks (and an old pad) to compress the rest of the way. I've never had to fight to compress the pistons, and they've always compressed fully.

Front rotors used: Mopar, ebc, napa (most expensive "level"), brembo (made in brasil), brembo (made in china), couple others that I don't remember. Had the best luck with ebc's and mopar's.

If I could afford to do the suspension over again (for higher spring perches, or coilovers), and afford 2 sets of srt-4 rims, then I'd get a big brake kit and be done with it. For now, it has to be what it is: stock size rotors and 15" rims.
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Post by Arro » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:30 pm

Air scoops for brakes are nothing new actually, and the wind drag of these wont' be any worse than the two extra nostril vents on an SRT-4's front end. I think these are exactly what you need, I say do it!
Drive it like you stole it, and work on it like you married it.
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Post by trojmn » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:45 pm

my87csx481 wrote:I've had this problem since day one. Owned the car since brand new. I'm on my 3rd or 4th set (at least) of brand new Mopar calipers. Cooked rotors with all calipers. 170,000 miles. Wheels spin with very little resistance when the car is off ground and in neutral.
This is the exactly thing that keeps me from doing a track day... i keep counting the cost to rebuild all four corners... How many events/hours or whatever do you get before you have to go through the brakes? I figure you would also cook bearings regularly.

Are you limited by the wheel that you use? Im pretty sure a rota slipstream 15" et 35 fits over SRT brakes size. If the spokes hit on that im sure a ET20 wont. I'll check sometime this week. PT front knuckles are the same as SRT with uglier calipers and thinner rotors. FWIW you want the base PT with manual trans knuckles that have a tie-rod location similar to our regular neon's and maybe the SRT rotor if you need more heat capacity. besides JY setup is cheaper than 3 sets of calipers...SRT front brakes have significantly more mass/heat capacity cus rotors literally weigh +50% more than the SXT rotor.

I still think the cooling duct is a cheap idea. i know a local miata guy who built caliper shield/shims cut from titanium stock and patterned it off of a brake pad. The idea is just to keep the heat from the pad from cooking through to your caliper. I PM'd you the pic/link.
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Post by my87csx481 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:46 pm

First, in all honesty, most (or all) of my stops would probably be considered panic stops by sane driving individuals. I brake late. As late as possible, as hard as possible, to scrub as much speed in as short a distance as possible without locking. This sorta' kinda' carries over to the street. I never claimed to be a safe driver.

After 170,000 miles, I'm still on the original wheel bearings, front and rear. They don't grind, rumble, squeel, have slop....so I'm not replacing them. They probably have been overheated more than once though.

I have about 200 track miles and maybe 1000 street miles on my XP12's (I don't know exactly how many street miles, it's a wild guess. The 200 track is accurate). There's probably one more track day left on them....maybe not. Bringing along another set to the next event, just in case. As far as rear drums and shoes....just replaced them both for the first time last month.

I "race" for the adrenaline, dopamine, rush, etc. Not trying to build a specific machine to dominate a specific class or specific set of rules. So no, I am not limited by the wheel size in that respect but, I have struts for a non-srt, so I can't run too big of a diameter wheel. And I currently have 8 stock wheels with 205/50-15 tires (4 for the street, 4 for the track, and 4 snowies). So I am kinda limited to the 15" wheels that I currently have by these factors (purely budgetary). I would LOVE to run SRT rotors, or better yet an even larger aftermarket kit for the SRT.

I could go on and on with details about my experiences with various pads but I won't. Not all of 'em anyway. I knew of Carbotech a long time ago but, forgot all about 'em until last year. I was talking with a tech support guy for a place that sells various brands of aftermarket parts. He claimed that he races. He recommended Carbotech to me. (I don't work for them, I'm a CNC Programmer, no kick-backs....sadly.) He also described, exactly, what the Hawks do. They work pretty good. But once you cook them, they're gone. And they never come back. I've had this happen with every set of Hawks I've ever had. He insisted that the Carbotechs do come back. If you cook them, take it easy on them and they will come right back, with the same stopping power. I don't know if that's true because mine never fell off. I've never faded yet when using them (not noticeably enough that I remember anyway). But, my rotors still get REALLY hot.

So, enough of my rambling. trojmn, pick up your skirt and do a time trial event. :D Just do a few laps, and come in to let everything cool off. Then go back out. Try it. You'll like it. I'm very hard on my vehicles, but this is not a requirement.

Sorry for such a long post.

tldr: I can't drive.
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Post by my87csx481 » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:53 pm

I am gonna' try to adapt this to our control arms: http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showf ... ed&sb=5&o=
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Post by INVUJerry » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:25 pm

SRT brakes will fit under stock wheels with a small spacer.
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Post by my87csx481 » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:27 pm

please define small.

got a pic?
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Post by INVUJerry » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:37 pm

Don't have a pic, but a buddy of mine used stock snowflakes for slicks. With a set of used pads they fit fine. With new pads he needed a 5mm spacer.
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Post by my87csx481 » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:59 pm

I have these:

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Pic swiped from and ebay ad.
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Post by INVUJerry » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:31 pm

Those will most likely for the same way. I don't have an SRT anymore so I can't check for you. But SRT brakes will accept 15" wheels.
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Post by trojmn » Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:08 am

my87csx481 wrote:I am gonna' try to adapt this to our control arms: http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showf ... ed&sb=5&o=
I like that idea.^^^ Hey your SXT has the fog light bumper, right? remove lights add ducting ala ACR

skirt? i prefer to call it a kilt. :D but i DID just stop commuting 3000miles/month for work. and i did pick up a new to me SRT which JUST got put the back together again from a torn LCA bushing. Finished up 2hrs ago. That pig isn't anywhere as nimble as our SXT's Racing autox GS/RTF saturday.

Seriously though a novice track day is on the list soon.
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Post by my87csx481 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:49 am

Nope, no fog light bumper cover. I considered using the openings there anyway but, found a bunch of info (mostly srt related) that confirms that that is a bad place for openings. Unless you stick some vertical pieces on the outside edge of the funnels. The need to stick out about 4" to be effective at 100+.

Congrats on the new job (or new place to live, or both)....and the new acquisition. Converting the srt into the toy?

I'm off to go play with cardboard and scissors and try and come up with something.
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Post by Danteneon » Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:50 am

GrooveNerd wrote:a couple of weeks ago, I took a trip on the interstate in a really hard rain. Much to my surprise, I had pretty much zero braking effect for one to two seconds after pressing fairly hard on the brake pedal! It must have been the rain/road spray, because they're not anything like that in the dry -- even when it's cool out!
That right there would be my biggest fear of running anything that directed water towards my brakes on a street driven car.
If I could just figure out how to meld the Outback and the Neon into one car...

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Post by sidepipe87 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:24 am

my87csx481 wrote:I have these:

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Pic swiped from and ebay ad.
be warned... I ran snow tires on stock 15" 7 spokes (these) on my SRT and with new brakes and a 3mm spacer they WOULD NOT fit... I had to grind down the corner of the calipers with a grinder to fit those wheels. The snowflakes that I had on previously fit just fine with the 3mm spacer.

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Post by trojmn » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:25 pm

my87csx481 wrote:Unless you stick some vertical pieces on the outside edge of the funnels. The need to stick out about 4" to be effective at 100+.
interesting.... I would think there would be a huge high pressure bubble there. Or is it a stagnant zone at that speed?
my87csx481 wrote: Congrats on the new job (or new place to live, or both)....and the new acquisition. Converting the srt into the toy?
Thanks new job close to home. Like it a lot.

Ijust finished the day on a fairly technical and tight autox course . When i walked it i thought for sure the SXT (STS prep) would have been the faster, but ended up in a very respectable 13th on index in the barely prepped SRT. Yeah it will likely be the toy as my SXT is passed 190K miles a while ago, hence my signature. Even bone stock, the turbo car is just more fun to drive on the street.
my87csx481 wrote:I'm off to go play with cardboard and scissors and try and come up with something.
I dont see why you couldn't weld studs onto the LCA, then its easy removal in case of rain events
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Post by my87csx481 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:28 pm

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f59/so- ... nd-376359/ for discussion about why the fog light area is not the best place for pressure.

And the second page of this thread for a whole bunch of links: viewtopic.php?t=60265&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

The stock front anti-roll bar is 24mm and the acr one is 26mm on the srt-4. The rear bar is 17mm according to the FAQ. Not sure if the acr rear bar is bigger. You're gonna' save stuff off the sxt to move over to the srt....no?

I felt like crap today. I picked up the mudflaps but, haven't been under the car to test fit anything. Yeah, I could weld something up....if I had access to a welder. I really need to work on acquiring a little MIG welder.

I think my ultimate solution is going to look at an acr srt-4 monday afternoon. Going to get an insurance quote right now to see if I can swing it or not. :rofl:
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Post by trojmn » Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:07 am

pretty sure ALL SRT's FSB are 24mm. the acr RSB is 19mm vs 17 for the regular SRT. Really the only difference between the ACR is small diameter tires, regular neon strut dimensions, 19mm RSB, seats with harness cutouts, and the door badge that says ACR.

of that list the seats are the only thing i would care about. And if i did a lot of track racing where i could hit things that dont move, that might be upgraded anyways. NOT being able to run a 17" wheel for the very common tire sizes kinda sucks too.

Yeah the plan is to keep my suspension setup for the new car, everything will fit, the extra weight of the SRT will require some minor adjustments. but everything is for sale i suppose.
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Post by my87csx481 » Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:33 pm

Pretty sure SRT-4 ACR/competition group is 26mm FSB.

Really, ACR SRT-4 wheels are smaller???? Or am I misreading something?

Edit: Nevermind, did some searching. Yes, acr's came with wider, lighter, 16" BBS rims.

Edit #2: Will the SRT-4 stock 17" wheels fit under the spring perches of the SRT-4 ACR'S struts? ('cus the perches are lower). I ask because I may go look at an srt-4. They claim it's an ACR but the wheels in the pictures are stock 17" ones, not the BBS wheels.

Edit #3: Nevermind. Found a sticky on srtforums about it.
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Post by trojmn » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:29 pm

my87csx481 wrote:Edit #2: Will the SRT-4 stock 17" wheels fit under the spring perches of the SRT-4 ACR'S struts? ('cus the perches are lower). I ask because I may go look at an srt-4. They claim it's an ACR but the wheels in the pictures are stock 17" ones, not the BBS wheels.
yes but not the 25" tall tire that came on the regular SRT wheels 205/50-17. ACR and regular neon's are limited to something less than 25" (IDK exactly) OEM ACR was 225/45/16=24.0". 215/45R17 24.5" might fit but it would be close.
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Post by INVUJerry » Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:44 pm

trojmn wrote:
my87csx481 wrote:Edit #2: Will the SRT-4 stock 17" wheels fit under the spring perches of the SRT-4 ACR'S struts? ('cus the perches are lower). I ask because I may go look at an srt-4. They claim it's an ACR but the wheels in the pictures are stock 17" ones, not the BBS wheels.
yes but not the 25" tall tire that came on the regular SRT wheels 205/50-17. ACR and regular neon's are limited to something less than 25" (IDK exactly) OEM ACR was 225/45/16=24.0". 215/45R17 24.5" might fit but it would be close.
Yes the 215/45 fit, since 24.5's fit under regular neon struts.
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