Something very cool about brakes and weight savings

Have some questions about how to achive better handling and stopping power using different springs, upgrading to coilovers, questions on swaybars, bushings, different rotors, pads, ect... Having any steering problems or questions about steering racks, tie rods, tie rod ends, ect... ask these questions here.
Post Reply
ragek23
2GN Member
Posts: 2476
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:22 am
Location: Torrington, CT

Something very cool about brakes and weight savings

Post by ragek23 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:17 pm

I found this while searching for around youtube. Its Ed peters an ex engineer from Mopar talking about how to save weight on SRT4s and 1st gen neons via PT cruiser brakes or the Wilwood setup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NEiDSdLl1s

2002 Neon SXT Sold
2006 EVO MR Weekend Warrior
2003 SRT 4 DD
-Kevin

Image

Donkeypuncher
2GN Member
Posts: 2183
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:14 am
Location: Dallas, Tx

Post by Donkeypuncher » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:04 pm

I saw that a while back. It only saves weight on the srt4 though. It's an upgrade for the 1g and 2g neons, but I believe our brake setup is still lighter so it's not much of a weight saver for us.

NickKo
2009 Gold Contributor
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:24 am
Location: IL./WI.border

Post by NickKo » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:51 pm

Still a very cool find, though !! :)


- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009

Donkeypuncher
2GN Member
Posts: 2183
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:14 am
Location: Dallas, Tx

Post by Donkeypuncher » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:13 pm

I was surprised when he recommended that for the srt4. I would have thought the pt cruiser calipers would be a downgrade, but I guess they are just as good.

ragek23
2GN Member
Posts: 2476
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:22 am
Location: Torrington, CT

Post by ragek23 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:35 pm

the calipers probably are not as heavy duty, so under race conditions you may get overheating quicker but the weight savings is more beneficial. I believe its about the same diameter rotor.

2002 Neon SXT Sold
2006 EVO MR Weekend Warrior
2003 SRT 4 DD
-Kevin

Image

Hudson_Neon
2GN Member
Posts: 3371
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:50 pm

Post by Hudson_Neon » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:12 am

i've done a lot of research on this lately since i'm undergoing major surgery with the neon. the PTs and 2nd gen neons take the exact same wheel bearing, thus not giving the wider bearing. the PT rotor is larger, but the pads have less contact surface. i've come up with it's not really worth it to me. i'll pull the parts off the shelf at work tomorrow night and take pics and post them in here

ragek23
2GN Member
Posts: 2476
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:22 am
Location: Torrington, CT

Post by ragek23 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:01 pm

Yeah, I was more or less thinking that this would be cool todo for an srt. use regular neon wheels and brake jobs would be a hell of a lot cheaper.

2002 Neon SXT Sold
2006 EVO MR Weekend Warrior
2003 SRT 4 DD
-Kevin

Image

User avatar
fargo59
2GN Member
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:05 pm
Location: niagara falls ON.

Post by fargo59 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:29 pm

neat, kind of where im going already. swapping to PT parts to upgrade the front brakes of my car this spring.

Hudson_Neon
2GN Member
Posts: 3371
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:50 pm

Post by Hudson_Neon » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:02 pm

it's not really an upgrade on a second gen neon. we were too busy at work tonight. i'll try to get pics on thursday night

ragek23
2GN Member
Posts: 2476
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:22 am
Location: Torrington, CT

Post by ragek23 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:59 pm

but for an SRT application it is weight savings.

2002 Neon SXT Sold
2006 EVO MR Weekend Warrior
2003 SRT 4 DD
-Kevin

Image

Hudson_Neon
2GN Member
Posts: 3371
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:50 pm

Post by Hudson_Neon » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:24 am

for srt sure... but not a common 2gn

User avatar
fargo59
2GN Member
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:05 pm
Location: niagara falls ON.

Post by fargo59 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:19 pm

remember it's not just the brake pad that is influencing the improvement in braking. while the pt/srt pad looks smaller, i would estimate that the area of surface is rather similar (i havent pulled my sxt brake pads off in a bit though)

the rotor is 1 inch larger than the base neon rotor, that helps. the caliper has a diameter of 57mm versus neon's 54mm. that 3mm is giving more applied force.

if you apply 800 psi (a number) to the neons caliper, you get 2838 Lbs of force
if you apply that same pressure to the pt's caliper, you get 3163 Lbs of force.
thats 300 lbs difference, on each caliper...


for that reason, i'd call it an upgrade. leverage and sqeeze. brake pads are only a part of it.

Hudson_Neon
2GN Member
Posts: 3371
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:50 pm

Post by Hudson_Neon » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:16 pm

i'll try to roughly calculate the surface area. there isn't a true advantage with the size of the rotors, i'll take pics and show you why

Dranz
2GN Member
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:39 am
Location: North Jersey

Post by Dranz » Wed May 07, 2014 7:04 pm

I know I'm kinda bringing this back from the dead, but, the pt stuff isn't just a bolt on affair. If you look at the neon calipers, they don't have any brackets, whereas the pt calipers do have brackets. You need to swap to the pt knuckles. And not just any pt knuckles. You need a specific year range with manual trans to keep your turning radius a decent amount.

And yes, it is an upgrade to 2 gen neons. One of the main benefits for me is, the larger diameter rotor can take more of a beating without overheating. Plus, it looks real nice behind the factory silverstones.

Put-Put_Neon
n00b
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 5:23 pm
Location: DMV

Post by Put-Put_Neon » Wed May 21, 2014 9:31 pm

Dranz wrote:I know I'm kinda bringing this back from the dead, but, the pt stuff isn't just a bolt on affair. If you look at the neon calipers, they don't have any brackets, whereas the pt calipers do have brackets. You need to swap to the pt knuckles. And not just any pt knuckles. You need a specific year range with manual trans to keep your turning radius a decent amount.

And yes, it is an upgrade to 2 gen neons. One of the main benefits for me is, the larger diameter rotor can take more of a beating without overheating. Plus, it looks real nice behind the factory silverstones.
Did you buy it used from the scrapyard or actually go out and buy all new rotors? I JUST changed my rotors, but its a downgrade from what they were. These are just basic duralast brakes no slots/vents with cheapo duralast dustmonsters...whereas before I had vented brakes and ceramic pads.

User avatar
dawm
2GN Member
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:50 pm
Location: Wayne, MI
Contact:

Post by dawm » Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:19 pm

Yeah.. old post.. but what I didnt see anyone say what the best reason for doing the pt brake swap on a 1g/2g is.

Pt calipers are the same as srt just not red. The carrier bracket is the same except it has a big chunk in the middle of the opening and the srt carrier has this part removed. A grinder and some powdercoat and theyre the same.

ThTher main reason to do the swap... you can use bigger/better/lighter brake setups for the srt now.. so you want 2 or 4 pot calipers from wilwood? Now you can.. two piece rotors?.. now you can. The upgrade is the option to upgrade to aftermarket.
12 Subaru WRX hatch - #notadowngrade
04 Neon - #base2SRT #24NAprojectgoneSRT
03 Subaru Forester 2.5XS - #gfscar #butiown
06 Subaru WRX STi - #traded4hatchback12WRX #gone
98 Neon R/T 2.4L Turbo Coupe - #7yearproject #SRTified #megasquirt
http://www.st1ck3rs.com
http://www.detroitneonowners.org

occasional demons
Junior Admin
Posts: 19063
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: Ashland Ohio

Post by occasional demons » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:21 am

An open door, to justify spending for teh neon, if you will. :lol:
Bill
dblsg wrote:ya'll a bunch of post whores
epic

2001 Neon ES MTX with '02 R/T PCM
Help support 2GN!

ragek23
2GN Member
Posts: 2476
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:22 am
Location: Torrington, CT

Post by ragek23 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:50 pm

After spending money on track pads and rotors for my weekend warrior i'm really thinking about the wilwood kit for the srt. Considering my front rotors and pads (OEM SIZE) are more than the willwood kit.

2002 Neon SXT Sold
2006 EVO MR Weekend Warrior
2003 SRT 4 DD
-Kevin

Image

valleyracer
n00b
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:23 am

Comment on brakes and suspension

Post by valleyracer » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:43 am

I see people going for HUGE rotors and debating what brake pad composition to get etc etc - on many car forums and gatherings

Without paying attention to bushings (rear bushings in particular) and firm struts, all larger rotors do is make your NEON do brake dive faster.

For effective braking, you have to prevent all the suspension squirm, chassis movement and "weak knee" tire position (tires move back slightly as the struts flex) and have DOT 4 brake fluid.

NickKo
2009 Gold Contributor
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:24 am
Location: IL./WI.border

Re: Comment on brakes and suspension

Post by NickKo » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:24 pm

valleyracer wrote:I see people going for HUGE rotors and debating what brake pad composition to get etc etc - on many car forums and gatherings

Without paying attention to bushings (rear bushings in particular) and firm struts, all larger rotors do is make your NEON do brake dive faster.

For effective braking, you have to prevent all the suspension squirm, chassis movement and "weak knee" tire position (tires move back slightly as the struts flex) and have DOT 4 brake fluid.
Good points !! :withstupid:

I'll pass on the DOT 4 fluid though.... At least on my Neons.



- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009

occasional demons
Junior Admin
Posts: 19063
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: Ashland Ohio

Post by occasional demons » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:48 am

The majority of folks that make the effort of swapping out the brakes, have already addressed those issues. It is more of an "icing on the cake" issue for them.

But it is still very good advice. It is far more noticeable on an SUV than a neon. Just new shocks alone on my Cherokee probably took 10 feet or more off the stopping distance.

Just like most other things, it is a package deal. If you have horrible body roll in turns, brake upgrades are just going to put you in the ditch faster, if you need to stop fast in a turn.

Brake dive will really mess up the bias. While the rear doesn't do a lot relative to the front, it becomes more obvious how much they really do when there is actually some weight on the tires to make the rear more effective.

And if the rear is doing more, there is much less chance of brake fade on the front.

But like I eluded to, on a maintained track car, hopefully all of this is taken car of. Brake fade factor there is more of how well the equipment handles the abuse...
Bill
dblsg wrote:ya'll a bunch of post whores
epic

2001 Neon ES MTX with '02 R/T PCM
Help support 2GN!

valleyracer
n00b
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:23 am

Truer words were never spoken

Post by valleyracer » Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:38 pm

occasional demons wrote:


Brake dive will really mess up the bias. While the rear doesn't do a lot relative to the front, it becomes more obvious how much they really do when there is actually some weight on the tires to make the rear more effective.

And if the rear is doing more, there is much less chance of brake fade on the front.

But like I eluded to, on a maintained track car, hopefully all of this is taken car of. Brake fade factor there is more of how well the equipment handles the abuse...
The simple expedient of changing the OEM (styrofoam) rear suspension bushings - in particular the trailing arms, yields vastly improved braking.

valleyracer
n00b
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:23 am

Re: Comment on brakes and suspension

Post by valleyracer » Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:29 am

NickKo wrote:
valleyracer wrote:

I'll pass on the DOT 4 fluid though.... At least on my Neons.


- Nick
Nonsense. THe synthetic DOT 4 is just pennies more than cheap stuff. Nice firm brake pedal, stays clean, won't soak up water. My RT is one of those 2% NEONS with ABS. I have a friend with a lift, so we do change the brake fluid every 3 years.
You're doing friends a favor by having them get rid of coffee-colored brake fluid.

Image

I sit inside and push the pedal as Dave walks around to each bleed valve. Clean brake fluid is a thing of beauty.

Image

NickKo
2009 Gold Contributor
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:24 am
Location: IL./WI.border

Re: Comment on brakes and suspension

Post by NickKo » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:42 am

valleyracer wrote:
I have a friend with a lift, so we do change the brake fluid every 3 years.
You're doing friends a favor by having them get rid of coffee-colored brake fluid.
I VERY much agree with you, on these points !!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :withstupid:

Changing brake fluid as part of a 'maintenance' routine, is key.
Too many people drive around with the same brake fluid, for years and years and years.

It then turns into the 'color of coffee' (as you stated), and then they end up with leaking wheel cylinders, sticking calipers, etc. - All while the brake fluid continues absorbing moisture and the boiling point, gets lower and lower.... Eventually ending up with air in the system.
Then, the brakes end up feeling like crap... because their calipers are binding, and the self-adjusters rust up because the wheel cylinders leak, and the master starts 'bypassing', etc., etc.


I know an autocrosser and racer, who changes his brake fluid every month !!
He does this, because his [extreme] competitive driving, puts a lot of heat into his braking system.
Some might say that what he is doing, is 'excessive' - BUT it sure won't hurt anything.
Better to change brake fluid too often, than not at all.


- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009

valleyracer
n00b
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:23 am

Brake fluid with particles

Post by valleyracer » Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:07 am

At the behest of a friend, I reluctantly changed the oil in her Honda (his girlfriend). I was looking over the engine bay fluids, I put a white paper towel in the BLACK HOLE of her brake fluid.
There were particles in the brake fluid. Must be 10+ year old brake fluid.

User avatar
INVUJerry
2GN Veteran
Posts: 6466
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Pasadena, MD
Contact:

Post by INVUJerry » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:26 pm

Just did all 4 corners of brakes on my minivan. I bet the fluid was OEM. Good god.

In the process I upgraded the minivan from 10" to 11" rotors using Daytona parts. I'd love to see the weight differences between PT and Daytona stuff.
Image
So many neons so little time.

valleyracer
n00b
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:23 am

Turkey baster obsessive

Post by valleyracer » Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:14 pm

In lieu of a complete brake fluid change, if the fluid is still at least "reasonable" and is iced tea color - but not black, you can (and I have) used a turkey baster to remove some brake and put in new fluid.
This is at least a partial way to upkeep the brake fluid.

Then remember NEVER to baste the turkey with the brake fluid baster :lol:

NickKo
2009 Gold Contributor
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:24 am
Location: IL./WI.border

Re: Turkey baster obsessive

Post by NickKo » Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:36 pm

valleyracer wrote:In lieu of a complete brake fluid change, if the fluid is still at least "reasonable" and is iced tea color - but not black, you can (and I have) used a turkey baster to remove some brake and put in new fluid.
This is at least a partial way to upkeep the brake fluid.

Then remember NEVER to baste the turkey with the brake fluid baster :lol:
This is not a bad idea.
I am having a hell of a time trying to get all the 'coffee' out of the master cyl. reservoir on the Neon I am working on.....


- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009

valleyracer
n00b
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:23 am

Photobucket drops photos

Post by valleyracer » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:35 am

I had photos of my 05 ACR clean brake fluid. Friggin photo-bouquet dropped them.
When I obsessively wax the SRT4 this weekend, I'll get a few photos of the brake fluid.

Post Reply

Return to “Suspension, Steering & Brakes”