Something very cool about brakes and weight savings
Something very cool about brakes and weight savings
I found this while searching for around youtube. Its Ed peters an ex engineer from Mopar talking about how to save weight on SRT4s and 1st gen neons via PT cruiser brakes or the Wilwood setup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NEiDSdLl1s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NEiDSdLl1s
2002 Neon SXT Sold
2006 EVO MR Weekend Warrior
2003 SRT 4 DD
-Kevin
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i've done a lot of research on this lately since i'm undergoing major surgery with the neon. the PTs and 2nd gen neons take the exact same wheel bearing, thus not giving the wider bearing. the PT rotor is larger, but the pads have less contact surface. i've come up with it's not really worth it to me. i'll pull the parts off the shelf at work tomorrow night and take pics and post them in here
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remember it's not just the brake pad that is influencing the improvement in braking. while the pt/srt pad looks smaller, i would estimate that the area of surface is rather similar (i havent pulled my sxt brake pads off in a bit though)
the rotor is 1 inch larger than the base neon rotor, that helps. the caliper has a diameter of 57mm versus neon's 54mm. that 3mm is giving more applied force.
if you apply 800 psi (a number) to the neons caliper, you get 2838 Lbs of force
if you apply that same pressure to the pt's caliper, you get 3163 Lbs of force.
thats 300 lbs difference, on each caliper...
for that reason, i'd call it an upgrade. leverage and sqeeze. brake pads are only a part of it.
the rotor is 1 inch larger than the base neon rotor, that helps. the caliper has a diameter of 57mm versus neon's 54mm. that 3mm is giving more applied force.
if you apply 800 psi (a number) to the neons caliper, you get 2838 Lbs of force
if you apply that same pressure to the pt's caliper, you get 3163 Lbs of force.
thats 300 lbs difference, on each caliper...
for that reason, i'd call it an upgrade. leverage and sqeeze. brake pads are only a part of it.
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I know I'm kinda bringing this back from the dead, but, the pt stuff isn't just a bolt on affair. If you look at the neon calipers, they don't have any brackets, whereas the pt calipers do have brackets. You need to swap to the pt knuckles. And not just any pt knuckles. You need a specific year range with manual trans to keep your turning radius a decent amount.
And yes, it is an upgrade to 2 gen neons. One of the main benefits for me is, the larger diameter rotor can take more of a beating without overheating. Plus, it looks real nice behind the factory silverstones.
And yes, it is an upgrade to 2 gen neons. One of the main benefits for me is, the larger diameter rotor can take more of a beating without overheating. Plus, it looks real nice behind the factory silverstones.
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Did you buy it used from the scrapyard or actually go out and buy all new rotors? I JUST changed my rotors, but its a downgrade from what they were. These are just basic duralast brakes no slots/vents with cheapo duralast dustmonsters...whereas before I had vented brakes and ceramic pads.Dranz wrote:I know I'm kinda bringing this back from the dead, but, the pt stuff isn't just a bolt on affair. If you look at the neon calipers, they don't have any brackets, whereas the pt calipers do have brackets. You need to swap to the pt knuckles. And not just any pt knuckles. You need a specific year range with manual trans to keep your turning radius a decent amount.
And yes, it is an upgrade to 2 gen neons. One of the main benefits for me is, the larger diameter rotor can take more of a beating without overheating. Plus, it looks real nice behind the factory silverstones.
Yeah.. old post.. but what I didnt see anyone say what the best reason for doing the pt brake swap on a 1g/2g is.
Pt calipers are the same as srt just not red. The carrier bracket is the same except it has a big chunk in the middle of the opening and the srt carrier has this part removed. A grinder and some powdercoat and theyre the same.
ThTher main reason to do the swap... you can use bigger/better/lighter brake setups for the srt now.. so you want 2 or 4 pot calipers from wilwood? Now you can.. two piece rotors?.. now you can. The upgrade is the option to upgrade to aftermarket.
Pt calipers are the same as srt just not red. The carrier bracket is the same except it has a big chunk in the middle of the opening and the srt carrier has this part removed. A grinder and some powdercoat and theyre the same.
ThTher main reason to do the swap... you can use bigger/better/lighter brake setups for the srt now.. so you want 2 or 4 pot calipers from wilwood? Now you can.. two piece rotors?.. now you can. The upgrade is the option to upgrade to aftermarket.
12 Subaru WRX hatch - #notadowngrade
04 Neon - #base2SRT #24NAprojectgoneSRT
03 Subaru Forester 2.5XS - #gfscar #butiown
06 Subaru WRX STi - #traded4hatchback12WRX #gone
98 Neon R/T 2.4L Turbo Coupe - #7yearproject #SRTified #megasquirt
http://www.st1ck3rs.com
http://www.detroitneonowners.org
04 Neon - #base2SRT #24NAprojectgoneSRT
03 Subaru Forester 2.5XS - #gfscar #butiown
06 Subaru WRX STi - #traded4hatchback12WRX #gone
98 Neon R/T 2.4L Turbo Coupe - #7yearproject #SRTified #megasquirt
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An open door, to justify spending for teh neon, if you will.
Bill
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
2021 Forester
2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCMOlha Koba, a psychologist in Kyiv, said that “anger and hate in this situation is a normal reaction and important to validate.” But it is important to channel it into something useful, she said, such as making incendiary bombs out of empty bottles.
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
2021 Forester
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Comment on brakes and suspension
I see people going for HUGE rotors and debating what brake pad composition to get etc etc - on many car forums and gatherings
Without paying attention to bushings (rear bushings in particular) and firm struts, all larger rotors do is make your NEON do brake dive faster.
For effective braking, you have to prevent all the suspension squirm, chassis movement and "weak knee" tire position (tires move back slightly as the struts flex) and have DOT 4 brake fluid.
Without paying attention to bushings (rear bushings in particular) and firm struts, all larger rotors do is make your NEON do brake dive faster.
For effective braking, you have to prevent all the suspension squirm, chassis movement and "weak knee" tire position (tires move back slightly as the struts flex) and have DOT 4 brake fluid.
Re: Comment on brakes and suspension
Good points !!valleyracer wrote:I see people going for HUGE rotors and debating what brake pad composition to get etc etc - on many car forums and gatherings
Without paying attention to bushings (rear bushings in particular) and firm struts, all larger rotors do is make your NEON do brake dive faster.
For effective braking, you have to prevent all the suspension squirm, chassis movement and "weak knee" tire position (tires move back slightly as the struts flex) and have DOT 4 brake fluid.
I'll pass on the DOT 4 fluid though.... At least on my Neons.
- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm
Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm
Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009
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The majority of folks that make the effort of swapping out the brakes, have already addressed those issues. It is more of an "icing on the cake" issue for them.
But it is still very good advice. It is far more noticeable on an SUV than a neon. Just new shocks alone on my Cherokee probably took 10 feet or more off the stopping distance.
Just like most other things, it is a package deal. If you have horrible body roll in turns, brake upgrades are just going to put you in the ditch faster, if you need to stop fast in a turn.
Brake dive will really mess up the bias. While the rear doesn't do a lot relative to the front, it becomes more obvious how much they really do when there is actually some weight on the tires to make the rear more effective.
And if the rear is doing more, there is much less chance of brake fade on the front.
But like I eluded to, on a maintained track car, hopefully all of this is taken car of. Brake fade factor there is more of how well the equipment handles the abuse...
But it is still very good advice. It is far more noticeable on an SUV than a neon. Just new shocks alone on my Cherokee probably took 10 feet or more off the stopping distance.
Just like most other things, it is a package deal. If you have horrible body roll in turns, brake upgrades are just going to put you in the ditch faster, if you need to stop fast in a turn.
Brake dive will really mess up the bias. While the rear doesn't do a lot relative to the front, it becomes more obvious how much they really do when there is actually some weight on the tires to make the rear more effective.
And if the rear is doing more, there is much less chance of brake fade on the front.
But like I eluded to, on a maintained track car, hopefully all of this is taken car of. Brake fade factor there is more of how well the equipment handles the abuse...
Bill
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
2021 Forester
2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCMOlha Koba, a psychologist in Kyiv, said that “anger and hate in this situation is a normal reaction and important to validate.” But it is important to channel it into something useful, she said, such as making incendiary bombs out of empty bottles.
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
2021 Forester
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Truer words were never spoken
The simple expedient of changing the OEM (styrofoam) rear suspension bushings - in particular the trailing arms, yields vastly improved braking.occasional demons wrote:
Brake dive will really mess up the bias. While the rear doesn't do a lot relative to the front, it becomes more obvious how much they really do when there is actually some weight on the tires to make the rear more effective.
And if the rear is doing more, there is much less chance of brake fade on the front.
But like I eluded to, on a maintained track car, hopefully all of this is taken car of. Brake fade factor there is more of how well the equipment handles the abuse...
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Re: Comment on brakes and suspension
Nonsense. THe synthetic DOT 4 is just pennies more than cheap stuff. Nice firm brake pedal, stays clean, won't soak up water. My RT is one of those 2% NEONS with ABS. I have a friend with a lift, so we do change the brake fluid every 3 years.NickKo wrote:valleyracer wrote:
I'll pass on the DOT 4 fluid though.... At least on my Neons.
- Nick
You're doing friends a favor by having them get rid of coffee-colored brake fluid.
I sit inside and push the pedal as Dave walks around to each bleed valve. Clean brake fluid is a thing of beauty.
Re: Comment on brakes and suspension
I VERY much agree with you, on these points !!!valleyracer wrote:
I have a friend with a lift, so we do change the brake fluid every 3 years.
You're doing friends a favor by having them get rid of coffee-colored brake fluid.
Changing brake fluid as part of a 'maintenance' routine, is key.
Too many people drive around with the same brake fluid, for years and years and years.
It then turns into the 'color of coffee' (as you stated), and then they end up with leaking wheel cylinders, sticking calipers, etc. - All while the brake fluid continues absorbing moisture and the boiling point, gets lower and lower.... Eventually ending up with air in the system.
Then, the brakes end up feeling like crap... because their calipers are binding, and the self-adjusters rust up because the wheel cylinders leak, and the master starts 'bypassing', etc., etc.
I know an autocrosser and racer, who changes his brake fluid every month !!
He does this, because his [extreme] competitive driving, puts a lot of heat into his braking system.
Some might say that what he is doing, is 'excessive' - BUT it sure won't hurt anything.
Better to change brake fluid too often, than not at all.
- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm
Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm
Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009
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Brake fluid with particles
At the behest of a friend, I reluctantly changed the oil in her Honda (his girlfriend). I was looking over the engine bay fluids, I put a white paper towel in the BLACK HOLE of her brake fluid.
There were particles in the brake fluid. Must be 10+ year old brake fluid.
There were particles in the brake fluid. Must be 10+ year old brake fluid.
Just did all 4 corners of brakes on my minivan. I bet the fluid was OEM. Good god.
In the process I upgraded the minivan from 10" to 11" rotors using Daytona parts. I'd love to see the weight differences between PT and Daytona stuff.
In the process I upgraded the minivan from 10" to 11" rotors using Daytona parts. I'd love to see the weight differences between PT and Daytona stuff.
So many neons so little time.
https://www.youtube.com/user/invujerry/videos
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Turkey baster obsessive
In lieu of a complete brake fluid change, if the fluid is still at least "reasonable" and is iced tea color - but not black, you can (and I have) used a turkey baster to remove some brake and put in new fluid.
This is at least a partial way to upkeep the brake fluid.
Then remember NEVER to baste the turkey with the brake fluid baster
This is at least a partial way to upkeep the brake fluid.
Then remember NEVER to baste the turkey with the brake fluid baster
Re: Turkey baster obsessive
This is not a bad idea.valleyracer wrote:In lieu of a complete brake fluid change, if the fluid is still at least "reasonable" and is iced tea color - but not black, you can (and I have) used a turkey baster to remove some brake and put in new fluid.
This is at least a partial way to upkeep the brake fluid.
Then remember NEVER to baste the turkey with the brake fluid baster
I am having a hell of a time trying to get all the 'coffee' out of the master cyl. reservoir on the Neon I am working on.....
- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 57mm TB; Maddog STS
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm
Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009
-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
-2001 ATX w/Syked PCM + Magnum header
-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm
Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000009
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Photobucket drops photos
I had photos of my 05 ACR clean brake fluid. Friggin photo-bouquet dropped them.
When I obsessively wax the SRT4 this weekend, I'll get a few photos of the brake fluid.
When I obsessively wax the SRT4 this weekend, I'll get a few photos of the brake fluid.