Wing discussion and the explaination of downforce

ewetho · Post by **ewetho** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:41 pm

Question for all those Aeronautical Engineers that love to rag on wings (Personally hate them for the most part) but what happens to you down force numbers when you tilt that wing say 20°. While those numbers for downforce may work great on a wing flat though the air what about those other flap known as elevators. Those things on fighter jets (flying wing tail or whatever where the whole horizontal stab pivots) seem to generate a lost more force then a wing in horizontal flight.

So take our ricer wing from a real race car and have it tilted say 15° or 20° and tell me what it is worth now. You can not tell me that stupid little wing that goes up on the back of an Audi at 45 MPH is for nothing as many a profession test driver noted the difference immediately. The fact is a true performance wind (From a real race shop) does work and provides performance advantages as well as performance trade offs. Sure a low drag wing such as at indy does little under a hundred but those high downforce roadrace wings are ridiculously good at even under 100 just don't expect them to hit 240 with them on.

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:18 pm

ewetho · Post by **ewetho** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:56 pm

I did not mean to make thing controversial or dispute facts but a wings shape and angle of attack are important facts in this discussion. Yeah you can make an upside down wing and it would have to be huge to make a reasonable difference. But smaller wings where you give up drag for down force are out-there and more reasonable depending on type of driving.

Most of the stupid wings are more show than performance an I grant you that but if someone were to go to a real race shop and have one built (say for IMSA GT-2) racing where they average around 100 for a lap and have a big 'ol wing or turning a speeds lower than that. The fact is is looking for just down force you could get more from a 35 degree piece of flat aluminum then maybe from a Airfoil.

The flying wing tail is also a maneuverability advantage due to is ability to generate large dynamic loads due to high angles of attack to the relative direction.

Try getting a standard wing shape and hold it out you window at 60 MPH and hold it still now turn it and watch what happens. Heck use you hand and you will figure out what is going on. Not good for drag and might not be ideal but it works. And also adding 150 lbs. or more to the rear or front will change the loading of the suspension and might give you balance you need.

Scale a car and watch your corner weights and then add 150 lbs to the rear and see what happens.

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:06 am

ewetho · Post by **ewetho** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:34 pm

Sure you could design a wing with all kinds o Lift or Downforce but still the elevators on some of our nations finest fighters do not have much in the way of lift but produce some righteous down force numbers when swung into position. Why wing-warping is not much used anymore, too subtle. Now a wing at 35 degrees or some other aero-device can produce more but an Indy car wing won't do much flat but they crank it up 15 degrees and OH-Boy. That is my point.

What ever you gain is something else is generally lost, and my example may produce more downforce compares to a foil laid flat but will produce so much drag to be a piece of crap. But down force it would create.

Unless of course you go out of your way to hide it behind the body to limit airflow over it.

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:31 am

skuttler · Post by **skuttler** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:09 am

To dumb things down a bit.....

I have read that if you leave the stock trunk of an srt-4 open and drive down the freeway the wing will not provide enough downforce to latch the trunk. Now, I do not have a wing on my neon and I don't own an srt-4 so this really amounts to something some guy read and regurgitated but I don't doubt that it's true. Someone should do a test. Assuming that it is true, what possible handling advantage would the wing add that a 20 lb sack of manure wouldn't?

ewetho · Post by **ewetho** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:05 am

Stock wing is LOOKS only. Can help hide idiot with high beems on, on occasion too.

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:21 pm

ewetho · Post by **ewetho** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:46 pm

Just out of curiosity what is the aero effects of a flying wind elevator (whole wing rotating versus just the back half or so) at 35-45 degrees or more versus a traditional wing shape.

Now granted your stock truck is not up to the task of say a Formula 1 wing and granted drag goes way up.

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:47 pm

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:42 am

I stickied this topic for a reason....INFORMATION....
You two keep discussing the topic, keep things cool though. I think right now this topic is probably one of the best for information and explanation of the wing topic.
Thanks for all the good info guys

OB · Post by OB » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:32 pm

would getting rid of the stock wing make ANY difference? My weight dist in my car is prob close to 70/30 seeing as how there is hardly anything left in the trunk/rear. So would a wing keep my rear wheels from trying to hop off the road? If I so much as tap the brakes during a hard fast corner (50-60mph+) my rear end jumps out like no ones business. this didnt seem to happen before I got all my suspension tuning done and stripped the rear. I could use some extra downforce back there, thats for sure.

ewetho · Post by **ewetho** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:19 pm

You may need to take those brake pads off and go back to stock for balance reasons. You may in effect be have too much in the front end vs rear. Without urethane bushings and that small rear bar it should not be that bad. You may want to also look at alignment angles. You should still be under-steering. If not then look to go coil over if you are going that far to save weight so you can scale the car and rebalance it properly.

anomalous0 · Post by **anomalous0** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:33 am

Ducktail spoilers are pretty. Don't they work by purposely causing itty bitty vortices to smooth the rest of the airflow around the vehicle? or am I talking out of my butt (happens often, though it sometimes speaks great wisdom.)

bombtrack07 · Post by **bombtrack07** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:04 pm

03blackrt wrote:Trying to make an aprecitable change in the aerodyanmics of a neon would be like trying to take a ham and cheese sandwitch from mama Cass in 1974.

that was the greatest analogy ever

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:37 pm

Uh, the main informational part of this thread is now gone? Huh?

kc2005ptgt · Post by **kc2005ptgt** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:43 pm

OB - I would say you are probably more 60/40 F/R weight dist, if even that. I have read that the neon is pretty well balanced as is, and I don't think you removed a whole 300-400 lbs, did you?

Maybe with all that stuff you pulled out it was more like 100-150 at best

Also, the SRT-4 spoiler weighs a whole 8 lbs, and that was weighed on a scale that had been calibrated recently (meat scale at work, about 3ft by 3ft). I seriously doubt adding the SRT4 spoiler really does anything to the car as far as weight is concerned

ewetho · Post by **ewetho** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:28 pm

Yeah what happened that was a fun mental exercise!!!

Arro · Post by **Arro** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:53 pm

03blackrt wrote:Trying to make an aprecitable change in the aerodyanmics of a neon would be like trying to take a ham and cheese sandwitch from mama Cass in 1974.

^^^ Good comment, huh?

Man, I so wish this thread would die and rot in the bowels of 2gn purgatory. Maybe someday I will do a well prepared write-up, but not anytime soon.

Hahah that you even know who she is.... awesomeness LOL

Sorry, I had to bump.... this is a great thread! Forgive my 2Gn n00bness...

For those of you who worry about weight, keep in mind there are nice, superlight CF spoilers.

And as far as I can tell, most (all?) of the WRC entrants use them to keep their cars on the ground as much as possible... not just through turns, but on jumps. You might think the car looks cool getting air, but to the driver, that moment in the air is DANGEROUS. If he lands slightly askew, his ride is gonna roll over. The "rally" style ones with the flat sides serve a second purpose... similar to a jet fighter's twin tailfins, they are positioned vertically to maintain stability when the car goes airborne.

And yes, for those of us interested in grooming our Neon for road racing, a nice, forcy, lightweight spoiler is a MUST. So expect mine to end up with am adjustable one. Probably even before the body kit.

Off-topic: anyone have any slick pics of rally-prepped 2G Neons?

Post by **racer12306** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:10 pm

quicksilvr wrote:Uh, the main informational part of this thread is now gone? Huh?

yeah why the hell did he delete everything.

but i can say that certain wings do help at normal driving speeds. on my monte ss i took the wing off to clean under it and such. well it was a couple days before i got it back on. when going down the highway i swerved a little and the back end definitly felt lighter. like it was dancing around back there. then i put the wing back on, it was more of a controlled movement.

it is a small wing, any one that wants to know what it looks like can google an 85 monte ss.

getcrunk88 · Post by **getcrunk88** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:41 pm

i know with my wing (stock) since i have a black car it shows every dam scratch unfortunately and every time i wax the car i see scratches on the wing where rocks flew with the air right up over the car and hit exactly on the same spot on the wing so i have fine scratches in somewhat of a perfect line on my wing so i know that air is hitting the wing in a certain area so it has to be doing something with downforce?

60trim · Post by **60trim** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:55 pm

I've been reading this sticky over and over and can't believe what I am seeing. It makes complete sense when it comes to downforce and wings. Bar none. Now, with a FWD car, I feel that footwork is important when it comes to grip vs slip. A wing can help, but on a daily driver, it has very littl if any effect on handling IMO. Besides, I like the wingless look better, but to each his own. Good post 03, nicely put.

ewetho · Post by **ewetho** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:25 am

getcrunk88 wrote:i know with my wing (stock) since i have a black car it shows every dam scratch unfortunately and every time i wax the car i see scratches on the wing where rocks flew with the air right up over the car and hit exactly on the same spot on the wing so i have fine scratches in somewhat of a perfect line on my wing so i know that air is hitting the wing in a certain area so it has to be doing something with downforce?

That would be airflow over the car to the wing that would be responsible for that.

But another thing I have see recently is the front wings or whatever you call them on CAN-AM (Rolex DP, Prototypes etc) are responsible for 90-100 lbs of extra down force and they are merely 1"X10" strips on the forward area of the front fenders. Also they said an F1 car gets like 5400 lbs. of downforce or was that one of the CART or INDY cars. Either way it was HUGE. They were also talking aout NASCAR and their huge down force numbers and their stuff is floppier than you expect too.

anomalous0 · Post by **anomalous0** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:14 pm

Just so you guys know....adding a wing might not change the aerodynamics of a neon.....but lowering does.
I believe that for every inch you lower your car you reduce the drag coefficient by 4-5%. Given the height of the neon and how rakish it is....that might make a difference. Just maybe.
Straight out of the bosch automotive handbook, the thing those germans read when they're learning to build cars.

ewetho · Post by **ewetho** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:19 am

You can also add a VITOR monster airdam to help out too.

IGotYourDoughnut · Post by **IGotYourDoughnut** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:31 pm

ewetho wrote:Stock wing is LOOKS only. Can help hide idiot with high beems on, on occasion too.

hey now... im the idiot with the high beams on...

BigMac · Post by **BigMac** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:49 am

FWIW, in one of the discussions with the SRT engineers on SRTforums, one of the engineers said that the SRT-4 wing generates 96 lbs. of downforce at 100 mph -- or 100 at 96, don't recall which -- and adds to overall high-speed stability. Doesn't mean much with speed limits of 65, but remember the car can do 150 (160+ with S3 turbo). Now if we just had autobahns here...

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:04 am

talk about post resurection

BigMac · Post by **BigMac** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:22 pm

You'd rather I keep the knowledge to myself?