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Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:31 pm
by MyNeonSaysHi
Thanks. Its normal to have some play. AGP got back at me. They said "That might be a little much. If the wheels are hitting the housing it is time for a rebuild."

I am thinking of pulling my cam cover today and see if anything is broken. But there is no rattling noise or anything in my valve train. Car definitely needs a leak down test done. I REALLY REALLY hope its just the turbo causing the smoking issue. I turned the compressor wheel by hand and its not hitting the housing. Its very very close though. [-o<

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:22 pm
by 04rebel
Maybe a couple thousandths but not what your video shows. I had an 85 600 2.2 turbo 2dr hardtop long ago, looks like seals and bearings for the turbo if you can get it apart. In my NY RUST area even the waste gate links corroded apart, didn't even bother trying to split the turbo itself from all the heat and rust!
But wow that car looks amazing, and WORTH whatever it takes to put aright! =D> =D> 8) 8)

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:22 pm
by MyNeonSaysHi
Yeah...glad mine is an 05 and never seen bad weather haha. A turbo car from 1985...yeah, no thanks. I think the turbo only has like 13k miles but it was put on like in 2008 or 2009.

Oh for sure.

I am just trying to figure out where to start at first. Taking the hotside off the turbo off will be a PITA. My back is already hurting haha.

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:48 pm
by 04rebel
LOL...try doing work after 5 back surgeries like I've had, and been maintaining 6 different vehicles!

You've got something well worth putting the effort into...and I can see that A LOT has been put into it already!

Yeah NY RUST is the PITS(gotta say things nicely),They even rust away when garaged from the elements!

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:39 am
by MyNeonSaysHi
So happy its the turbo!


https://i.imgur.com/0rB9jfQ.mp4 = video showing play on exhaust side. Check out that caked on oil.

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Found a little exhaust leak on my wastegate to manifold too

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Downpipe and wastegate w/ dump off. Random picture
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Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:48 am
by JeremyJ
That's a lot of play for sure. What's the plan for the turbo? Rebuild or replace with something bigger?

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:33 pm
by MyNeonSaysHi
JeremyJ wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:48 am
That's a lot of play for sure. What's the plan for the turbo? Rebuild or replace with something bigger?
Definetely not rebuild. Its an old style journal bearing turbo. Unless I can find one used. But I doubt it. Then you find one used and they say its in great shape but turns out it is not. So going new at this point.

Not sure on the turbo but it will probably be a dual ball bearing turbo. I could just get a AGP DBB 50 trim .63AR. But not sure. I just want something that will mate to my ATP log manifold so I can pretty much just bolt it on and run a coolant line to it. As for a bigger turbo, yeah probably not unless I had a built motor. Don't want to go over 400whp for reliability issues. Just searching around trying to find a good deal. Hopefully it doesn't take too long. Knowing me, it probably will. Haha

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:50 pm
by 04rebel
Well I wish you great luck in finding a proper replacement turbo...they don't come cheap! But your ride definitely looks worth the expense.

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:10 pm
by MyNeonSaysHi
Thanks I found a used journal bearing turbo just like mine. AGP 50t .63 AR for $450 OBO. He said it only has 5k miles on it...It doesn't look like it has 5k miles on it! LOL But that would be a cheap easy option. Just swap it in and cross my fingers. I even tossed the idea of going back to stock for reliability. Less HP and TQthe longer my motor will last haha. But that would take a ton of work to do that. I hate it when I ahve a car that isn't running right. Bums me out.

Also a good question to ask...What caused the turbo to fail in the first place...

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:42 pm
by 04rebel
Turbos have LONG had their longevity troubles ...all the way back to WW11 aircraft engines! Heat "coking" on shutdown of the oil feed/return on a HOT turbo is the most common cause. That"s why a number of years ago they came out with add on electric oil pumps to keep oil flowing on shut down and also was good for pre start lubing as that impeller spins at extremely high rpm's. Some tried cooling the intake side with the engine coolant system, but that only worked for the "cooler" side of the turbo. The hot exhaust side is the "killer".
NO I'm not old enough for first hand experience of the turbo supercharged WW11 aircraft engines..but was a Jet engine tech for the P&W J52P-408 engined A-4M Skyhawk jet the US Marines flew while I was serving. They are a just like a turbo...with fuel injected after the intake compression side and the hot exhaust side drives the power plant ...just like your turbo. And they had to have "rebuilds" on a regular flight hours maint. schedule! :)
I can remember at night opening the hood on my old 66 and seeing the exhaust side of the turbo housing glowing CHERRY RED!

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:03 am
by occasional demons
04rebel wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:42 pm
That"s why a number of years ago they came out with add on electric oil pumps to keep oil flowing on shut down and also was good for pre start lubing
There are also other options like "turbo timers", that are essentially a timer that lets the engine idle for x amount of time after the key is off. It lets the turbo wheel slow down to the point it doesn't spin long enough to hurt anything, and also cools it down a bit, via the cooler exhaust at idle, and if water cooled, the circulating coolant.

There are also accumulators that are charged by normal oil pressure, and release that oil reserve after the engine shuts off.

The latter two are more common than a separate pump. I think turbo timers are probably the preferred method, being mostly some wire splicing at the most to install.

Not implying anything towards MyNeonSaysHi, but for people that run it hard, then park it soon thereafter, are going to have turbo failures more often than not. If you just give it some time to wind down, let it idle for a few minutes and then shut it down, it's going to go a long ways to benefit the turbo.

But sometimes stuff just fails, no matter how well you try to take care of it.

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:03 am
by Midnight_Rider
occasional demons wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:03 am
But sometimes stuff just fails, no matter how well you try to take care of it.
My biggest fear. :hiding:

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:17 am
by 04rebel
Midnight_Rider wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:03 am
occasional demons wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:03 am
But sometimes stuff just fails, no matter how well you try to take care of it.
My biggest fear. :hiding:
YUP, I think we all have that with anything we have! :wink:

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:49 pm
by MyNeonSaysHi
Well decided to just get it rebuilt. Having this guy rebuild it. He does good work from what I hear. Once he receives it and takes it all apart. I can decide if I want to upgrade the wheel too. $250 for rebuild. https://www.facebook.com/ArtGennariTurbo/ 2-4 week turnaround time which will seem like forever. Going to clean the heck out of the firewall area and tidy some things up. Also going to do my oil pan gasket that has been seeping like crazy. And maybe cut the balance chain since pan will be off.

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:45 pm
by JeremyJ
That seems like a decent price. I hope it turns out well. Take pics of the chain if you decide to cut it. I've always been curious about that mod.

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:46 pm
by occasional demons
Hopefully a 2gn handles the vibrations better than a 1gn. I reinstalled my balance shafts because it was driving me insane.

For a stripped out interior, it might be a great mod, but for a DD, I personally wouldn't do it again. I really didn't notice any power loss after I put it back to stock. Going back to a 52mm TB from the 60mm on my '01, that was a thousand times more noticable. When I did the swap, I gutted the balance shaft assy before I installed the engine, so I never had a before and after reference. But not noticing a power loss with them is good enough for me. And that's an N/A engine. With boost, I really can't see it making much difference.

The bitch with cutting it, is if you hate it, you are stuck buying a replacement. Well either way, it's a PITA, as the oil pump needs removed to either take it off without cutting it, or reinstall it. Which means the whole timing belt related labor. Since the Gates water pump started pissing coolant, it was the perfect opportunity to put it all back. I was most of the way there...

Bottom line, if you dislike vibrations, don't do it. I enjoy being able to see what's in my rear view mirrors, other than a blur.

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:44 pm
by MyNeonSaysHi
They do. I haven't heard of anything crazy with the 2gn. Its not my daily driver so I don't care about vibrations really. Plus its a Neon and doesn't ride the best anyway. That is why I have an automatic Acura TL-S that rides very smooth. And if that chain fails, its a huge mess, can be very catastrophic. A local just took his off his srt-4 and he said it had a lot of slop in it and was glad he took it off. But his car has over 130k miles. I am not going to take the whole assembly out. Just remove the chain. Supposedly very easy. Just cut it off with bolt cutters and remove the plastic guide crap and that is it. Yeah I don't think I am going to go through all the work trying to put it back on if I don't like it. A couple locals have their chain off and its not too bad at all and they have solid mounts like me. It is noticeable at higher revs though.

Jeremy, if you search balance chain delete on srt-4 owners page via FB a guy took a picture if his chain after he cut it. But I will take pictures of the process.

Not too happy since I have only 1k miles on this 5w-40. I want to reuse it. Just need a clean container.

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:40 am
by theColonel
MyNeonSaysHi wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:44 pm
They do. I haven't heard of anything crazy with the 2gn. Its not my daily driver so I don't care about vibrations really. Plus its a Neon and doesn't ride the best anyway. That is why I have an automatic Acura TL-S that rides very smooth. And if that chain fails, its a huge mess, can be very catastrophic. A local just took his off his srt-4 and he said it had a lot of slop in it and was glad he took it off. But his car has over 130k miles. I am not going to take the whole assembly out. Just remove the chain. Supposedly very easy. Just cut it off with bolt cutters and remove the plastic guide crap and that is it. Yeah I don't think I am going to go through all the work trying to put it back on if I don't like it. A couple locals have their chain off and its not too bad at all and they have solid mounts like me. It is noticeable at higher revs though.

Jeremy, if you search balance chain delete on srt-4 owners page via FB a guy took a picture if his chain after he cut it. But I will take pictures of the process.

Not too happy since I have only 1k miles on this 5w-40. I want to reuse it. Just need a clean container.
How much horsepower will you gain by removing the chain ?

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:09 pm
by JeremyJ
I've read it's a 5-10 horsepower bump.

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:49 pm
by MyNeonSaysHi
04rebel wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:42 pm
Turbos have LONG had their longevity troubles ...all the way back to WW11 aircraft engines! Heat "coking" on shutdown of the oil feed/return on a HOT turbo is the most common cause. That"s why a number of years ago they came out with add on electric oil pumps to keep oil flowing on shut down and also was good for pre start lubing as that impeller spins at extremely high rpm's. Some tried cooling the intake side with the engine coolant system, but that only worked for the "cooler" side of the turbo. The hot exhaust side is the "killer".
NO I'm not old enough for first hand experience of the turbo supercharged WW11 aircraft engines..but was a Jet engine tech for the P&W J52P-408 engined A-4M Skyhawk jet the US Marines flew while I was serving. They are a just like a turbo...with fuel injected after the intake compression side and the hot exhaust side drives the power plant ...just like your turbo. And they had to have "rebuilds" on a regular flight hours maint. schedule! :)
I can remember at night opening the hood on my old 66 and seeing the exhaust side of the turbo housing glowing CHERRY RED!
Good info and story. Thanks for your service.

Yeah I read some threads on srtforums about deleting the balance chain. there really is no drawback to doing so. Just some more vibration in the steering wheel. I could take the whole assembly out and get a windage tray but I don't want to do that. Just cut the chain and get rid of the plastic crap. This thread has good info/discussion. https://www.srtforums.com/threads/cut-t ... 026/page-2. there is also another thread from 2005 that has like 10 pages. I was going through that too. :shock:

Jeremy is correct its like 5-10hp. More HP in the upper RPMS. Supposedly a smart thing to do on higher HP Neons since the chains can break more easily at above 400hp. I ordered a new Mopar oil pan and Mopar oil filter adapter gasket too. Just because :lol:

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:32 pm
by MyNeonSaysHi
Lots of little updates and pictures galore:

Took oil pan off, cut balance chain. Removed chain and hardware associated with it:

Before
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Process
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After
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Ordered a new mopar oil pickup tube gasket
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Oil pan and gasket(s)
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Not fun putting back in. Had to remove my lower torque strut to put it back in.
Everything torqued to spec. That bolt was a pain to get to had to use a bunch of skinny 1/4'' extensions
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All done nice and pretty haha
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Rebuilt turbo should be here on Thursday too! "All new bearings and seals. Upgraded 360 degree thrust bearing and wide thrust collars. Cleaning, inspection, journal bore line hone, Assembly, and Balance. New AGP 50 trim turbine wheel. Ceramic coating"

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:35 pm
by MyNeonSaysHi
Got the turbo back in the mail:
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He lost the oil feed line I sent him for inspection. So he ordered me a new AGP feed line from AGP. That will get here on Monday. So I really can't do much until then since that is the first thing I need to put on before I mount it to my manifold. :(

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:59 pm
by 04rebel
MY AIN"T THAT PURTTY LOOKING!!! :)

You really gonna DRIVE this BEAUTY once all back together???? :)

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:13 am
by MyNeonSaysHi
Yes sir'ee! But more problems. :(
The turbo was not clocked correct. Luckily I just mocked it up. So I took it back off and adjusted that. Decided to use the new oil feed line fittings that came with the AGP kit. (It came early!)
Looks like the previous owner used teflon paste on the oil feed line unless that is how it is stock? I thought that was a no no? Should I put a bit on or not with the new silver fitting to the block? It looks like it has one more thread too.
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But this was the big kicker, I saw this hairline crack on my manifold :(
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Should I take the manifold off now since the turbo is off, or just roll with it like that for another year? I really want to drive my car again and I don't drive it too much.

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:21 am
by 04rebel
As far as the teflon tape...I'd go with a liquid thread sealer from Loctite, it's in a HIGH heat area, and you can see the seepage from the original fitting. Test fit before install is the name of the game with anything that connects to something else! BUT that manifold crack is not going to get any better in use, you've got it this far apart now...you want to go thru the work again? and when it opens up under heat...where do you think those exhaust flames and gases are pointing at to do further harm???
Got a BEAUT of a ride there... might as well do what it needs now. :)

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:49 pm
by occasional demons
Teflon tape, if it gets into the oil passage can cause issues. Liquid sealer is much safer in that aspect.

The biggest issue with a manifold crack is it will let ambient air enter the exhaust. IE: "False" o2 levels at the o2. It can wreak havoc with the A/F mixture if it opens up enough. It's bad enough when it happens on an N/A engine. The PCM will begin to swing the fuel from one extreme to the other trying to stabilize the A/F ratio.

There are a few members that had this issue, and I had it on my '99 Jeep. It is a real PITA to figure out what is going on, when you don't know that the manifold has cracked. The dealer couldn't even figure out what was going on. In my situation, the header didn't crack at the usual Jeep location of the runners, but it was deep in the collector. It wasn't until I got fed up and tore the IM and header off the engine, and got a good look at it, that I finally found the issue. It was far less visible than yours.

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:20 pm
by MyNeonSaysHi
Thanks guys for your suggestions. I found the PDF how-to by AGP for their oil cooled turbos for the SRT-4. Turns out NO sealant/tape is needed for the fitting going to the block. Yet the picture shows teflon being on there??? LOL I am confused. https://www.srtforums.com/threads/agp-i ... df.531483/ Post number 2, Non water cooled turbo on the last row to the left. I just don't understand why it would leak without it. Oil drain plugs down't have teflon on them. I learned a lot from that PDF. Even not driving in boost when I go to turn off the car I am supposed to idle for like 3 minutes to cool the manifold down.... And the break in procedure for a turbo. My builder told me I just needed to prime it a couple times and I could boost away... Well that doesn't look like the case if you follow AGP's instructions. Let car idle for 20 minutes, drive with no boost for 100 miles... Yeah..... way different.

About the manifold..Yeah its a toss up. I asked on facebook of all places and people said to get it fixed but was told by some OG's that it is normal for the ATP cast iron manifold to crack and not to worry about it.

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:16 pm
by MyNeonSaysHi
Was so close to getting done too! :( :( :( Just had to finish up the hotside of the turbo.

Tightening down the 4 bolts to the manifold and one of the threads went out inside the manifold. So the bolt won't tighten down properly. I should of sprayed air in that hole to get all the old grime and stuff out of there. I remember taking those bolts out and how nasty they were, so I cleaned the bolts up but not so much the holes they go into. But I believe it was my fault. I sprayed WD-40 Specialist Rust Release Penetrant Spray in the holes. Not sure if that softened the threads. I mean the other 3 holes were fine and would tighten down properly. So who knows it could of just been weak from the heat cycles. I keep hearing more and more bad things about the ATP cast manifolds too. It is a learning expierence for sure. To save money I could just have them fix that hole and weld up the manifold. But I might just go with another manifold.

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:34 pm
by JeremyJ
That sucks to hear about the issues with the manifold. I hope you can get it figured out soon.

Re: MyNeonSaysHi Mod Log: Stone White

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:35 am
by occasional demons
The oil had nothing to do with the threads stripping. If penetrating oil was that strong, we would all have issues! The casting was probably defective from the day it was cast. Dirt and grime might have affected how soon it bottomed out, but wouldn't cause the threads to strip.

I don't think I have ever stripped a hole in an engine block, but I have stripped threads in other materials. Good cast iron can be pretty damn tough. Just don't beat it with a big hammer. :P

I don't know that I would use a heli coil, but a time sert kit is ~$100ish. I would be cheaper to take it to a shop to have one of those installed.

I mean if you have to spend around $100 to repair it, may as well put it towards a new un cracked manifold.

A heli coil and a stud might be more durable, since the stud would stay put as long as the nut was kept lubed. But if a stud prevents assembly due to clearance issues, then that option is out.