2GN Rally Neon Build Project

Do you have a project going or will you be starting a project here very soon and just want to keep a log of everything you and when? Share with everyone every step of the way what sort of progress you are making on your project.
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webkris
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Post by webkris » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:51 pm

Danteneon wrote: Do you know of any problems with using one of those on a street driven car?
It's going to be "very twitchy" (as it's now 12:1 steering) and on a car that's always on pavement and probably spends the majority of it's life going straight at highway speeds it's going to get tiresome. Track car, autocross car, rally car - different story. As we're on dirt most of the time, some of that "twitchy on pavement" is reduced.

Why this works for rally: Let's take an example of a "L2 into R2" (Hard left turn into hard right turn) The wheel is 3 turns away from transitioning to the right hander. If you're going to go through there as fast as possible you're going to be cranking on the wheel - and using a fast "shuffle steer" or "hand over hand" method to turn the wheel 360 degrees 3 times.

With a faster rack or quickener you not only have less turns to make, but you can turn in faster with less effort. You can transition the car from turn to turn faster. This can make a difference when you have 1000 different corners to negotiate (stage rally).

There are some other things to consider:
You're going to work the crap out of your power steering pump, so it will also need to be modified to handle that speed of turn at those RPM's. (Most soccer moms don't go lock to lock at 5,500 RPM sideways.)

Lose that power steering - and you're in for a SERIOUS ARM WORKOUT.
This is why I brought the steering wheel 2" closer. The less reach you have to make to the wheel (elbow at 90 degrees - upper arms at side) the easier it is to steer in general (and I accept the possibility that I may lose PS during a rally).

Fun stuff tho!
- Kris

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webkris
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Updates

Post by webkris » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:54 pm

Some additional engineering necessary...
Just a quick note - The steering column and quickener needed some more effort. If something related to steering is off .05 from the center, it's off a lot. :| After welding I re-assembled and found about 20 degrees of friction when turning. I stupidly assumed that the ID (inner diameter) of the column and the ID of the spline adapter were different and that's why I tried to center the adapter from the outside. (Metric car made in Mexico - Adapter in the US) I cut it off to re-weld and was shocked to find that the ID of both were .755 and .753 respectively.

Instead of centering from the outside, all I needed was a metal pin that was exactly 3/4". And that's exactly what we did. My buddy Erik was able to find a steel dowel pin from McMaster for $2.32, he shipped it to his office and we welded it up and tested it last night. Check out the video of the Dodge Rally Neon steering quickener test.

New Rally Watch
Just picked up a new G-Shock. This watch comes with RALLY MODE - counts you down to the next minute then starts a special stage timer! Store and edit stage times. Atomic time, solar powered, water proof - rally ready! Casio Men's GWM850-1CR Atomic Solar G Shock Watch

The 2GN gets dropped off for its roll cage

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There was some excitement this morning in the rallynotes.com garage. The 2GN was loaded up onto the tow dolly and brought down to Streetwise Motorsports for roll cage fabrication. We're looking to get her back in July, but in the mean time we have some electrical issues to sort out on Ze'Neon (our first rally car) and some serious garage reorganization.

Quick note on choosing a builder: I've been talking with Doug at Streetwise about the 2GN rollcage details over the last month (and known him for about 4 years) and I think it's important that you have a good working relationship with your cage builder - as their work is what really makes a strong and safe rally car. Sure, you and your buddies can weld up a cage, but consider that someone who has built a number of cars, and been around rally for years, is going to have a lot more experience with what works and what doesn't.

Race seats will be on order shortly. Pictures of the build, fitment, and process to follow!
- Kris
Last edited by webkris on Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gtxtreme19
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Post by gtxtreme19 » Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:13 pm

This is so freaking awesome! Now I wanna rally my car
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webkris
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Cobra Sebring GT seat + Roll cage fit

Post by webkris » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:45 pm

I've been doing some garage organization and cleanup - as some of you might have seen on rallynotes.com

But this is what you came to see... :D

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DSC03904 by webkris, on Flickr

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DSC03905 by webkris, on Flickr

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DSC03906 by webkris, on Flickr
Last edited by webkris on Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by C1DoG » Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:07 am

gtxtreme19 wrote:This is so freaking awesome! Now I wanna rally my car
:withstupid:
Drove my neon until it was killed in a flood.
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UriahRR
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Post by UriahRR » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:46 am

Damn, what a roll cage. Nice ceiling support.


You said you wanted to trade cars, right?
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magner
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Post by magner » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:04 am

Well built car, I really like your attention to detail, looking forward to reading more updates.

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Post by saint12 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:54 am

nice work so far pretty decent seam welding

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webkris
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Dodge Neon 2GN Rally Car Roll Cage

Post by webkris » Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:56 pm

Dodge Neon 2GN Rally Car Roll Cage
http://rallynotes.com/gallery/2011-2gn- ... -roll-cage

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DSC03999 by webkris, on Flickr

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DSC04007 by webkris, on Flickr

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DSC05697 by webkris, on Flickr

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DSC05690 by webkris, on Flickr
Last edited by webkris on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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greybox
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Post by greybox » Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:50 pm

That looks incredible! Are you copying another design you have seen or just making it up as you go along?

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DetergentCandy
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Post by DetergentCandy » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:12 pm

:D I LOVE THIS THREAD
02 Neon R/T(Blackula) - Old and busted
05 SRT-4(Serenity) - Sold
20th Anniversary Golf GTI - Sold
05 SRT-4 - New hotness


LilSparkPlug wrote:Mmmm beefy :rofl:

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webkris
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Post by webkris » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:28 pm

greybox wrote:That looks incredible! Are you copying another design you have seen or just making it up as you go along?
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The above is the very basic of what is required.
I've been rallying long enough that I wanted the full X on the doors as well as the "sill bar". My cage builder reversed the V on the roof (that's allowed by the rules) to go to the center of the main hoop (much like WRC FIA cages) and we added two back-stays from there to the rear strut towers. The front of the cage is tied into plates on the front strut towers. On a uni-body car it is pretty critical for performance to tie the shell to the cage for stiffness, and we did that in a number of areas. The same reason strut tower bars are good for a street car.

- Kris

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greybox
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Post by greybox » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:16 pm

Looks great! I cant imagine how stiff that car has to be now, tied in to good tires and springs it would have to handle like crazy!

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webkris
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Post by webkris » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:35 pm

Cage painted:

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DSC04037 by webkris, on Flickr

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DSC04039 by webkris, on Flickr
Last edited by webkris on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

sxxxt
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Post by sxxxt » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:18 am

Sweet!!!!! Moar progress

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webkris
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Post by webkris » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:14 am

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DSC04048 by webkris, on Flickr

Over the weekend - got the HVAC back in, dash back in, etc.
- Kris
Last edited by webkris on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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iThane
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Post by iThane » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:41 am

this car is looking GOOOOOD!!!

can't wait to see it in action :gears:
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My Progress Log
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Post by JRM » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:14 am

Subscribed.
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Post by C1DoG » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:20 am

iThane wrote:this car is looking GOOOOOD!!!

can't wait to see it in action :gears:
:withstupid:
Drove my neon until it was killed in a flood.
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webkris
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The hard work of putting it all back together.

Post by webkris » Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:14 pm

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The hard work of putting it all back together.

The first thing on the agenda was to paint the cage. This is like building a paint booth - - inside your car. After mistakenly buying (and spraying) silver metallic, I went back to the store to pick up a flat 'granite' grey. As I'd be painting the roof, floor, and side pillars, I wanted to go with something darker then primer. I think the color is perfect for the interior of a dirty rally car. With a respirator on, I did two coats of grey and then I sprayed a clear coat on the floor and the door bars that would see the most abuse. Allow 3 days to dry, then begin.

The HVAC system was a bit of a fuss to get back in, but eventually I coaxed the blower motor under the bar going out to the front strut tower. The flap that controls air from the cabin and air from the outside was compromised, and we'll have to see about sealing that up better. The 1stGen only took air from the outside, so being able to control that even partially is better then nothing. The dashboard followed quickly afterwards and heavy modification to the vents were needed to make them operable. I used pop rivets to secure the tubes that push air to the cabin. With 70% of the original dash gone, you have to be resourceful if you want the remaining bits to stay in place.

The wiring is underway with the stock dash harness back in. I found an old phone charger cable that I scrapped to make a coil cord for the horn. I pop riveted the original interior light back in - a little further back, and replaced the bulb with an LED replacement. Red and white LED strips are in place above the driver and co-driver. Their location will be finalized when Christine's seat goes in.

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I mounted an 1/8" plate with four bolts into the frame rails behind the co-driver's seat. This fixed, flat location was used to mount an Optima Red-Top battery inside a plastic box. The plastic box will keep spares or tools from damaging the battery, and adds very little weight. I had enough wire to put the battery all the way in the trunk, but I prefer to keep the weight between the front and back wheels. There is a handy rear seat belt bolt near there that I re-purposed to be the main ground for the chassis.

The next big step will be to get the body wiring harness back in, battery connected, and tested. This will allow the stock motor to return and we'll really start pushing for Prescott

- Kris

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neonhondakiller
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Re: 2GN Rally Neon Build Project

Post by neonhondakiller » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:35 pm

you can try this trunk it is cheaper http://www.andysautosport.com/dodge/200 ... creations/

you mite want to talk to these guys too they make a lot of race only stuff fiber dash doors trunks hoods bumpers and so on and the price is good

http://www.classglassperformance.com/00-02%20Neon.html
Fiberglass Doors For Racing Only $400.00 each
Carbon fiber doors in black gelcoat ( can't see carbon on the outside ) for racing only. $650.00 each
Trunk Lid Stock $300.00
The trunk lid uses the stock hinge and latch.
Dash (Racing only) pic is 1st gen $250 fiberglass
SRT4 Nose (racing only) light weight with no wheel opening inner lip.
________________________________________
One piece grille and bumper section.
fiberglass $375.00
carbon fiber $575.00
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Danteneon wrote:
webkris wrote:So I have a couple of questions and would love to hear your input on some of the ideas I want to try.

* Should I scour the earth for an SRT-4 fuse-box engine bay wiring? I'll certainly get the SRT-4 engine harness. The reason I ask is that I am just about to clean up the engine bay wiring now that the 2.0L is out. A former owner bashed the radiator support hard and that jammed wires into the AC compressor. :| No wonder the headlight switch connector melted...

You could use the SXT harness and fuse box assby, but you would need to add a few SRT specific circuits. It really shouldn't be too hard to find a SRT harness. They do pop up from time to time (there is a SRT part-out in the FS threads now IIRC)

* Rally is unkind to FMIC's. :D I'm looking to do a "side by side" radiator and intercooler. Know anyone who has a successful setup? We'll also be adding venting and fans to pull the air out through the top of the hood (ala Ford Focus WRC style) this will also mean re-routing the turbo piping with a custom exhaust.

I have nothing to offer for this one, but I would think it could be done if you are doing your own core support mods though. Hybrid's 1st gen build is using a half sized aluminum radiator that leaves a lot of room for a side mounted intercooler.

* I can find CF and fiberglass hoods, but no fiberglass trunk lids. Any ideas?

Carbon by Design offers their decklid in FG, CF, and Race CF. On the pull down menu you can select the material. It's cheaper in FG too :D

http://www.carbonbydesign.com/proddetai ... cf%5Ftrunk
Harry Bushling
1st gen NA SOHC
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webkris
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Steering plate adapter modification!

Post by webkris » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:02 pm

Once I got the dash and wheel all assembled - I felt there was still a little play in the steering. I discovered that a little modification of the "generic GM truck" steering wheel adapter was needed:

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DSC04071 by webkris, on Flickr

That little extra lip of aluminum was preventing the adapter splines from seating all the way. This in turn was giving just a little play in the wheel when moving from left to right. Once I removed that lip, the splines seated perfectly. I re-assembled everything with Blue Lock-Tight: center bolt, 3 adapter bolts 5 hub screws, 3 more bolts for 2" extension, 5 steering wheel hub bolts. All tight to spec and ready for rally action.

Speaking of steering - one of the things that needs to be done with a quickener is to modify the flow rate (and potentially the pressure) of the stock pump. You never want to be in a situation where the pump can't keep up with your steering. The SXT valve currently has a .10" diameter hole - I removed .01" - going to .11" for the flow valve in the power steering pump. Once we get her started back up we'll experiment if we need more then that. Changing the pressure is potentially dangerous - so we'll start with just the flow rate.

The motor is back in and we're signed up to be "zero car" for the Prescott Rally in Arizona. This means we'll be at 80% rally speed - sweeping and securing the course for the competitors. This will be a good first test of the new rally car!

- Kris
Last edited by webkris on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

r/tguy02
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Post by r/tguy02 » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:37 pm

CF doors thats just too awesome there! dont know of anyone else that has gone to the expense of installing those. Good amt of weight reduction there.

much earlier in the thread you mentioned the 2.0 engine as a 420A, that is a missconception, the proper engine code is S4RE :thumbup:
Justin
[02 R/T sold][00 Highline sold][04 r/t scrapped][95 NYG Sport coupe][01 r/t DD]
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webkris
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Post by webkris » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:09 pm

r/tguy02 wrote:CF doors thats just too awesome there! dont know of anyone else that has gone to the expense of installing those. Good amt of weight reduction there.

much earlier in the thread you mentioned the 2.0 engine as a 420A, that is a missconception, the proper engine code is S4RE :thumbup:
Harry is my "Crew Chief" and he can go a bit overboard trying to spend my money. :p
I'm planning fiberglass hood and possibly trunk. I'm going to pass on the CF doors and save for the turbo parts and tires I plan to go through. CF doors - although cool, are not in my racing budget.

S4RE - yeah - that's correct. Mis-information on the internet!

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UriahRR
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Post by UriahRR » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:02 pm

I love race cars. Full CF doors, quarter panels, and door surrounds are awesome and essential to race cars, but unfortunately it's not in the budget sometimes. Still an awesome build, though, man. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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webkris
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Test Drive

Post by webkris » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:33 am

First test drive – 2nd Gen Neon Rally Car

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The other day I was pretty excited to pop the axles in and go for a spin. Unfortunately I still had to re-attach the front bumper, lights, and hood. There was also adding fluid to the transmission and the modified power steering pump.

Monday, I wrapped up all these tasks and set the car back down on the wheels. The steering made no argument turning rally tires on concrete. No noise from the pump and the steering felt light. I idled slowly out of the driveway, listening for any weird noises from a car that I've taken completely apart and put back together.

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My first reaction to the quickener is that it drives like a video game. That tight - instant steering you get from your Logitech Gaming Wheel. It feels natural and I didn't even think about adapting to it. You just drive it like you would Sega's Ferrari F355 Challenge. The car drives straight and I didn't tax the steering pump puttering around the neighborhood swerving around trash barrels. The real test will be at speed - and at a rallycross in 3 weeks.

The plan has been finalized to be 'Zero Car' at Prescott. This is a lot less stressful then competing and will be a great shakedown of the systems and setup so far. For those of you unfamiliar with the term: 1 or 2 course opening cars are sent down the rally stage to make sure it's clear and the time controls and signs are in place (000 and 00), then the 0 car (usually a rally car) is run at a fast pace before the competitors. The zero car reports any change in conditions to the drivers, any potential safety issues, and declares the stage "hot" and ready to run. The Prescott Rally is September 30th - October 1st, and we have one last weekend of prep to get the new rallynotes.com Dodge Neon rally car ready to run. See you on the stages!

- Kris

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webkris
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update

Post by webkris » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:19 pm

Working on seats and belts. Co-Driver rally computer, etc.

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DSC04129 by webkris, on Flickr

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DSC04131 by webkris, on Flickr

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DSC04142 by webkris, on Flickr
Last edited by webkris on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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webkris
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Post by webkris » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:51 pm

The rally car experiments

When you build your own rally car – at some level – you have no idea what you’re doing. Whether or not you meticulously plan it all out, at some point you’re going to have to just try it and see if it works. This is the only way you’ll ever get onto the stages.

One thing I suggest is not running too many “rally car experiments” at one time. Using a scientific method you should only change 1 major component at a time. Get some feedback, get some data – mark it off as successful or try again. This is one of the reasons we didn’t jump right into a turbo motor for this car. Lots of stuff to test and tune before changing the motor over to an SRT package. Here are the current experiments on the new rallynotes.com rally car:

LED Lighting
I figured that a car that was built in the 21st century would be able to snap in LED lights. But that’s just not how it is. I’m looking at LEDs for their longevity, durability, and power savings. Using resistor blocks that trick the relay is unacceptable. Turns out, weird stuff happens when you switch over to all LEDs and modify the relay. The car has circuits that rely on that power load, and a diode to ground confuses them. At this point, I am unaware of a setup without “load resistors” that will give the 2GN all LEDs. Right now I have a modified aftermarket relay and stock front turn bulbs. The rear lights are all LED. The experiment continues. viewtopic.php?t=9383&start=60

Power Steering Pump
As you have probably seen my work with a steering quickener, this experiment involves getting more fluid through the stock pump. A condition autocrossers are aware of is when you steer so much left to right that the fluid boils and then no-longer fills up the steering assist. You get a condition known as “pump catch” – this is where you’re working faster then the fluid can pump into the rack. So far, all that was done is a change to open the flow valve diameter a tiny .01″. Doing just this gets a lot more fluid through the pump. I haven’t changed any springs or shimmed any valves. Steering pump pressure is extremely high (1200psi) so be careful here. This experiment took a lot of research and appears positive on the street, but I’m not going to call it successful until a full rallycross workout.

Rallycross Springs
The first thing you notice when looking for suspension mods is that practically no-one RAISES their car. Searches always yield lowering springs, and “how much drop from stock” numbers. If you want to rally or rallycross your car you’re going to have to lift or raise it. Taking a page from the Subaru guys, I decided to test something out. You see the Forester (that fat little SUV) is built on the same platform as the Impreza. It uses the same strut design, yet has more ground clearance. Turns out Forester springs are a great start on an Impreza rallycrosser. The springs are “heavier” (spring rate in lbs.) to accommodate the heavier SUV and that means you get a harder spring with more ground clearance. The Forester version of this equation is the PT-Cruiser. PT’s take the same strut design (in the front at least). They are heavier and have more ground clearance. This weekend I changed the front struts over to OEM PT-Cruiser front springs. I gained at least 2″ of ground clearance and didn’t notice any adverse handling issues ( not bad for $68 ). As for the rear, the clearance remains high here as the Neon is always sort of “nose down” from the factory. I’m entertaining ideas as this experiment unfolds. A full on rally suspension this is not, but I needed something while the budget recovers from 2GN rally prep so far.

All the major components are in place and tested for our trip to Prescott Arizona this weekend. Some additional wiring and safety items need to be installed, but I’ll have time this week to button it all up. See you there!

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DSC04146 by webkris, on Flickr

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DSC04144 by webkris, on Flickr

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DSC04152 by webkris, on Flickr

- Kris
Last edited by webkris on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

DodgeEvo
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Post by DodgeEvo » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:54 pm

Car looks good, would of loved to be an rally car driver.
Patrick

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INVUJerry
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Post by INVUJerry » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:14 pm

If you put srt rear struts and use sxt springs there is a little lift involved. You could also get some ground control springs and coil sleeves, but that's money.
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So many neons so little time.

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