Lean in Boost and Sputter

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Cbussilver01es
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Lean in Boost and Sputter

Post by Cbussilver01es » Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:57 pm

As I was driving, the car now wont go into boost when I step into it, it will start to sputter and the wideband will read very lean like in the 16:0 to 17:0 range, and now at idle it surges more than it did, and idles very lean at about 16:0. Any ideas? It will start to build in 2nd but only at part throttle.

I pulled the plugs and only one looks covered in carbon and on the others, the electrode is real bright and white looking.

Could it be the plugs arent gapped properly or could the coil be going bad? Im going to try to figure out, but I just thought I would ask anyway just for some input. Im kinda stumped since Im new to MS. Erick gave me a good tune so I just am wondering if its something that I can possibly help.
:banghead:
-Sean
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Post by ZeroChad » Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:39 pm

Post up a datalog and your msq...maybe we can work from there. Are you using EGO correction?
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Post by esteinmaier » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:01 pm

I've got EGO correction set up with PID, but I don't believe he has a laptop that he can plug in for now. I know for a fact that his MSQ isn't his problem, so there's not much point in posting it.

I believe there is some other wiring demons in the car that are causing his problems. Circuits I didn't even touch stopped working when I installed the MS.
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Post by Cbussilver01es » Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:51 pm

I still have no idea, it is now acting worse than it did before you left Erick, Like sitting in the driveway, it stalled out on me about 4 times, one weird thing that I noticed was that the vacuum line to the BOV came off and the car wanted to idle fine, but once I hooked it back up it kept loping and stalled on me, the car wont even boost now, it will act like it wants to go, but then the wideband reads - - - and white smoke comes out of the tail pipe and all the car does is sputter., Im done messing with it for today, it is really frustrating me because I have no idea what it could be... It even idled rough when I had the 19lb injectors connected and the stock PCM controlling everything. Before you stalled the MS. :banghead:

Should I just try new plugs, wires, injectors, coil and Throttle Position sensor or is there something else that Could be the culprit?
-Sean
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Post by DingoR/T04 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:38 pm

Maybe the wastegate spring is bad. I would try a boost leak test to rule out vacuum leak and the spring. I would also start with the basics like make sure your getting fuel and spark. Also what are your plugs gapped at right now?
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Post by Cbussilver01es » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:06 pm

tried a gap at about .25.. nothing, tried gap at .35 nothing changed, its still will sputter. its almost like the thing is running on three cylinders or less when I give it throttle. when I put my foot to the floor while driving, I don't even get any air fuel readings at all.. all I get on the wideband is - - - and it just sputters. When i give it little revs at idle, that is when the smoke comes out from the exhaust. I checked the compression this morn on the cylinders and 1,2, and 4 all have the same high reading around 190 to 200 but cylinder 3 has about 110 to 120 ... But thats another story. Its weird because I have a vacuum block and I unplugged the BOV signal and it idled higher but it still wasn't smooth. Im at my wits end on this because I should be making boost and even if I had a leak somewhere I thought the AFR's would be richer instead of more lean. Also one thing to note is when I was driving at the time that the car wanted to act normal, my AFR with a heavy load on the engine still read at almost stoich.. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
-Sean
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Post by ZeroChad » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:11 pm

It idled higher because you created a vacuum leak. It sucks that you don't have a laptop to throw up a log. I'm wondering if you're getting some crazy blowby in cyl 3? Cyl pressure differences off that much are nothing to ignore. When I had my bent rod from hydrolocking, I was reading a difference less than that.

Other than that, do you have MS controlling the ASD and fuel pump relays?
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Post by DingoR/T04 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:49 pm

Its sounds like you have a really bad leak somewhere. Besides the low cylinder pressure. Your not creating any boost so if you have a leak you are pretty much bleeding off air. Other than a leak the only thing controlling boost is mechanical. A boost leak test would tell you alot.

Just re-read the next to last post. Your obvs. one cylinder down. What color is the smoke? I believe depending on what #'s you get will tell you if your rings are bad or if valve seals are gone. It would make some kind of noise if u cracked the piston or bent the rod.
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Post by Cbussilver01es » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:16 pm

DingoR/T04 wrote:
Just re-read the next to last post. Your obvs. one cylinder down. What color is the smoke? I believe depending on what #'s you get will tell you if your rings are bad or if valve seals are gone. It would make some kind of noise if u cracked the piston or bent the rod.


The smoke is oil, I can tell by the smell of it. It only smoked when I revved the motor a little or if I was decelerating. I took my plugs out again tonight and looked down each plug hole, and when I got to the #3 cylinder, I looked down and on top of the piston looked like a complete circle about the size of a quarter or smaller was stamped in the carbon buildup on the piston.
Zerochad wrote:t idled higher because you created a vacuum leak. It sucks that you don't have a laptop to throw up a log. I'm wondering if you're getting some crazy blowby in cyl 3? Cyl pressure differences off that much are nothing to ignore. When I had my bent rod from hydrolocking, I was reading a difference less than that.

Other than that, do you have MS controlling the ASD and fuel pump relays?
Honestly, not to sound like too much of a n00b but I couldnt tell you if it is connected to the ASD relay and Fuel Pump Relay, since I didn't wire that bad boy up. Sorry. All I was doing was handing Erick what he needed and tried to help with anything possible.
-Sean
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Post by esteinmaier » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:04 pm

ASD and fuel pump are being run by the stock ECU. Both working fine, otherwise the car wouldn't do anything at all.
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Post by T-Nasty » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:49 pm

Sean i know you had some problems with the timing earlier this year. May have done more damage that you thought. Since you see evidence of damage on your #3 cylinder i would guess you have a bent valve. It may have been fine at first but things like that only get worse. Destroying your valve seals and the like. Seeing as your getting lean conditions I would rule out ignition problems. It has to be either a fuel issue, compression, or timing. Just my opinion.
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Post by Cbussilver01es » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:31 pm

T-Nasty wrote:Sean i know you had some problems with the timing earlier this year. May have done more damage that you thought. Since you see evidence of damage on your #3 cylinder i would guess you have a bent valve. It may have been fine at first but things like that only get worse. Destroying your valve seals and the like. Seeing as your getting lean conditions I would rule out ignition problems. It has to be either a fuel issue, compression, or timing. Just my opinion.
Yea thats what I was thinking, I just dont know, I wish I had a decent enough video camera to let you hear how this thing idles, its awful.. Ive checked the timing, put the #1 to TDC and all my timing marks still line up, I just don't know man, Im no mechanic, nor do I have the money to pay for something like this to get done so all in all its just shitty. I just hope its not a bent valve, but for some reason Im probably 50% thats what it probably is...
-Sean
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:51 am

White smoke = water/antifreeze burning
BlueishWhite smoke = oil burning
you sure you did not pop a headgasket?

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Post by T-Nasty » Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:09 am

may be a possiblity but he said he can smell the oil.
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Post by ZeroChad » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:22 pm

I only brought it up b/c of a chance they could be responsible for fuel cut.
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Post by Cbussilver01es » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:44 am

Well after pulling the head after the timing belt jumped I found that about 3 of my intake valves are bent so I am just going to bite the bullet and probably buy just a whole new set of valves and try again. And for the record it is impossible for me to time a DOHC motor properly ... :(
-Sean
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Post by T-Nasty » Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:10 pm

that sucks but glad you got it figured out. When you time your engine this time make sure your #1 cyl. is at TDC. then align your cams. Make sure you check your pistons when you have it all apart to make sure that they aren't damaged too bad from when the valves hit them.
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Post by Cbussilver01es » Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:08 pm

T-Nasty wrote:that sucks but glad you got it figured out. When you time your engine this time make sure your #1 cyl. is at TDC. then align your cams. Make sure you check your pistons when you have it all apart to make sure that they aren't damaged too bad from when the valves hit them.
Well on cylinder #1 you can see a pretty decent crescent shaped gouge on the piston maybe about a millimeter or so above where where the pistons look like they clear the the engine is rotating, (I don't know what they are called since I have DOHC pistons in my car) instead of the flat pistons like a SOHC has. See my problem was everytime I had the cams lined up and then set the tension the cams would move, and then when I had the cams set the crank would move 3 or more teeth when I tried to set the tension.

Idk this whole thing has been a pain in my ass, I don't know whether to buy a whole new set of 16 and start over and have the head machined, or to just buy the valves that I might need and do it that way...

:banghead: Anyway here are pics of the pistons

Image

Image

Image

Image

Notice that all the marks are on the intake side of the pistons
-Sean
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Post by esteinmaier » Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:12 pm

Ouchies. How do your cylinder bores look? If they are clean, think about a forged set. You've already learned what not to do, so I think you'll be a lot better off.
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Post by T-Nasty » Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:46 pm

yeesh.
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Post by Cbussilver01es » Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:03 pm

The bores are still in good shape, they are smooth and I can still see the cross hatching on them, I would get a forged set, but I don't have the time, or money right now or the right tools to have the whole motor apart right now you know?
-Sean
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Post by esteinmaier » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:12 pm

Well, it's a turbo motor, so loose is good. The only thing I can think of that would be required would be a few rags, a hone, a ring compressor, and hand tools.
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Post by Cbussilver01es » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:13 am

Yea, the bottom line is I want this thing to run right, with the Tune that the MS has programmed right now, I will eventually go forged in the future. And since the pistons don't look to bad I assume I should be alright with the bottom end.
-Sean
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Post by esteinmaier » Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:19 am

OK, well keep in mind that the tune is likely skewed. Once it goes back together, chances are pretty good that you'll need to do some datalogging for me so I can try to fix the tune remotely.
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Post by occasional demons » Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:55 am

Cbussilver01es wrote:
Well on cylinder #1 you can see a pretty decent crescent shaped gouge on the piston maybe about a millimeter or so above where where the pistons look like they clear the the engine is rotating, (I don't know what they are called since I have DOHC pistons in my car)
Valve reliefs. :thumbup:

When setting the cam timing, try to keep the slack as minimal as possible, and on the tensioner side. That way when it pulls up the slack, it doesn't move the gears with it. You could install the belt, and set the tension to where the belt can be slid off working around the gears, then set all the marks, and carefully slide it back on a little at each gear, then finish setting the tension.

Just rotate the engine by hand (plugs out so you're not fighting compression), to be sure it all stays in line, and nothing is hitting.
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Post by Cbussilver01es » Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:38 pm

esteinmaier wrote:OK, well keep in mind that the tune is likely skewed. Once it goes back together, chances are pretty good that you'll need to do some datalogging for me so I can try to fix the tune remotely.
Ok thats fine with me, I kinda figured that I might have to do that.
occasional demons wrote:When setting the cam timing, try to keep the slack as minimal as possible, and on the tensioner side. That way when it pulls up the slack, it doesn't move the gears with it. You could install the belt, and set the tension to where the belt can be slid off working around the gears, then set all the marks, and carefully slide it back on a little at each gear, then finish setting the tension.
I'll try that, I actually just bought this tool that someone suggested I use, that actually locks the Cams in place so maybe that would help me get it timed.

I hope that once everything is back together, everything will be good and I can actually boost with out the fuel seeming like its cutting out, and misfiring
-Sean
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Re: Lean in Boost and Sputter

Post by Cbussilver01es » Sat May 22, 2021 1:13 pm

POST RESURRECTION AFTER 10+ YEARS

I still have this car, and am just getting back to wrenching on it after a LONG hiatus, and I've come to some interesting problems now that I am a bit older and wiser. These are the problems I am currently having.

• When the ASD relay is unplugged, the car will Crank freely on its own, but as soon as I plug it back into the PDC the car does not fully crank. It cranks but only a 1/4 of a rotation and its intermittent, and cranks a quarter of a turn every two seconds.
• The car will still try to crank even if the clutch is not pressed and it's in gear.

I interchanged all the relays with good ones, so I know that the relay by itself is not bad. Also I never had this problem before the MS install, and esteinmaier was who installed my MS, and I know he knows what he is doing, Im just stumped now even worse than before. The car isn't my DD but still I would like to get it running so I can finish the project and FINALLY enjoy it. Hopefully I get a response from anyone who still comes here that knows Megasquirt
-Sean
01 Dodge Neon MSII 2.0 DOHC turbo, '13 Dodge Dart Mopar Edition 1.4 Multi-Air turbo
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Nos is a lot like a hot chick with std's you wanna hit it but are afraid of the consequences.

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