Can we run E85?

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jmr
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Can we run E85?

Post by jmr » Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:19 pm

I noticed that my local station is selling E85 for $2.24 a gallon.
So has anyone tried using it? I've got a 05 SXT will E85 work OK in it?

E85 is rated at 105 octane and burns cooler, but what does it do to the fuel system?
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Post by racer12306 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:27 pm

It could cause problems with the fuel system, since the system was not designed for E85. esteinmaier has been running E85 for about 30000miles and he has only noticed a problem with the fuel gauge not working.

If you were to go with E85 you would want 24lb injectors (OEM stratus injectors i believe are 24lb'rs) and then your in business.

Expect fuel economy to go down ~30%
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Post by esteinmaier » Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:35 pm

Typically, it won't go down a full 30%. Even though it requires 30% more fuel at peak loads, it's more efficient at lower loads, so most people see reductions of 14-17% in fuel mileage. But the rest of what racer said is true.
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Post by jmr » Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:52 pm

So it's just a matter of changing injectors? The computer will be able to handle E85? What size injector does the Neon have stock? Did the size ever change for 2ndGen Neons?
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Post by racer12306 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:54 pm

19lb injectors are stock for all N/A neon
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Post by jmr » Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:10 pm

I realize there is a MPG drop when running E85 but will larger injectors hurt when burning regular fuel?
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Post by racer12306 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:11 pm

It will probably just be pig rich with normal gas.
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Post by occasional demons » Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:27 pm

Aren't the flex fuel cars able to run both? Just wondering what they do to get the A/F ratios right with the given injectors. Damn, another thing to research. :beatstick:
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Post by racer12306 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:39 pm

Yes, flex fuel cars can run both. However there are additional sensors in place to allow for the adjustments related to either gas or E85.

Since neons do not have these sensors, or computer programming to recognize them, it is a one or the other situation.
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Post by jonnymopar » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:28 pm

Stratus injectors are also 19lb/hr.
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:14 am

FlexFuel vehicles are designed from the factory to run blended fuels or conventional. Thats why there known as flexfuel....

The Neon uses's 19lb/hr injectors like mentioned above, but you can use the Jeep 4.0 24lb/hr injectors, I think off an 01 era 4.0. There injectors look just like ours but are rated at 24lb/hr. I have run them in my car with only one issue, when the car is in Open loop mode, it runs a little rich but in closed loop mode the pcm is able to control the injectors and keep the A/F Stoich...
With that said, you should be able to install a set of 24lb'rs and have the fuel flow needed and the pcm will recalculate the A/F ratio's to hopefully keep everything STOICH.
But also note, the rest of the fuel system is designed for Gasoline, not Alcohol, so be warned that possible damage could happen....
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Post by 2001dodgeneonrt » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:05 am

jonnymopar wrote:Stratus injectors are also 19lb/hr.
The 2.0 Stratus' are 19lb, the 2.4 stratus has 24lb as stated above.
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Post by jmr » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:35 pm

How much do injectors cost?

What about running a blend such as E20 or E30 on stock
components, would that work ? I've read where some verhicles do better on these mid blends than standard E10 gasahol.
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Post by esteinmaier » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:42 pm

The more ethanol content, the more flow is required. You'll get to a point that the fuel trims just can't increase pulse widths enough to compensate, and you'll run lean and throw codes. Another 10% probably isn't enough to cause problems with a completely stock neon, but are you going to mix it yourself? Or just put 2 gallons of e85 in the tank and fill the rest up with 87?
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Post by jmr » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:56 pm

I would buy some E85 and calc how much is in the tank and try it at E20 or E30 levels and see how the mileage/performance responds. I know the fuel gauge is not that accurate but using the stock tank size of a 12.5 gallons. This would be the mixing percentage.

1/8 tank E10 + 0.25 Gallon E85 = E20 20.34%
1/4 tank E10 + 0.5 Gallon E85 = E20 20.34%
3/8 tank E10 + 0.75 Gallon E85 = E20 20.34%
1/2 tank E10 + 1.0 Gallon E85 = E20 20.34%
5/8 tank E10 + 1.25 Gallon E85 = E20 20.34%
3/4 tank E10 + 1.5 Gallon E85 = E20 20.34%

1/8 tank E10 + .56 Gallon E85 = E30 29.79%
1/4 tank E10 + 1.125 Gallon E85 = E30 29.85%
3/8 tank E10 + 1.7 Gallon E85 = E30 29.96%
1/2 tank E10 + 2.25 Gallon E85 = E30 29.85%
5/8 tank E10 + 2.8 Gallon E85 = E30 29.79%
3/4 tank E10 + 3.125 Gallon E85 = E30 28.75%
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Post by occasional demons » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:23 pm

BlackRoseRacing wrote:FlexFuel vehicles are designed from the factory to run blended fuels or conventional. Thats why there known as flexfuel....

But also note, the rest of the fuel system is designed for Gasoline, not Alcohol, so be warned that possible damage could happen....
Ethanol is more corrosive than gasoline, and the higher percentage you go the less miles you will get out of the engine. This is due to alcohol being an excellent degreaser. It cleans the oil film from the cylinder walls much more than gasoline. I think this problem wouldn't be as bad if it was injected like a diesel just before TDC so it wasn't being drawn in by the piston exposing the whole cyl. wall. But that option won't be available soon, atleast for Neons.
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Post by esteinmaier » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:31 pm

No problems as of yet in my engine.
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Post by INVUJerry » Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:49 pm

esteinmaier wrote:No problems as of yet in my engine.
Just clutches! LOL
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Post by esteinmaier » Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:19 am

clutches, transmissions, and lots of tires.
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Post by jmr » Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:01 pm

Does anyone know what the flow rate was for the stock 2003 SRT-4 injector ?

Would the 2003 SRT-4 stock injectors be a large enough injector to run E-85 ?
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Post by INVUJerry » Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:15 pm

I think the SRT injectors might be too big.
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Post by esteinmaier » Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:20 pm

Way too big.
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Post by jmr » Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:33 pm

So a N/A PT 2.4 or 2.4 Stratus injectors should work then ?

I'm curious how my 2006 PT Turbo - Lite would do since it already
has the Stage 1 injectors installed ? It's boost range is 6-8 psi which is why in runs fine on 87 octane regular gas.
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Post by esteinmaier » Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:38 pm

It will probably do fine on a mix, but not all e85.
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Post by cook2790 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:28 am

So my question is how does e85 affect power?
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Post by occasional demons » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:18 am

For a N/A engine, with no mods, you will lose a little. The more compression, the better, within reason of course. A 2003 + 2.0 will probably suffer more in stock form, due to the .5:1 less C.R.

Going boost, with the right tune will get you some nice results.
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Thread Revive

Post by John Figueroa » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:17 pm

This post is what approx. 5 years old...ish, I did a seach to check on everyones Progress with E85 and I couldnt find it, so basically me and a friend are thinking about making our own Ethynol :love10: of course you know... Legally. but my question is with all of you who Do run Ethanol what Issues have you actually encountered? I would assume Over 5 years you would see something you can attribute to running E85. and I dont care about none working gas gauges, Im more concerned with Exploding cylinders car fires, Piston shotput, and of course Transformers.

Just really curious Car has 144k on it so honestly Im not too concerned for this Engine, but more for its replacement.
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Post by ZeroChad » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:10 pm

I ran it for 3.5yr with no issues. Granted, for tw of the years I was properly tuned for it. I would at least recommend swapping to the R/T ecu. The extra timing would be incredibly beneficial.
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Post by occasional demons » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:59 pm

ZeroChad wrote: I would at least recommend swapping to the R/T ecu. The extra timing would be incredibly beneficial.
It helps. You really need the 24lb injectors to run straight e85.

I have run almost 100% e85 - 19lb injectors - on the R/T PCM, but you could tell it was pushing it's limits. It did much better than one would think, I credit the more aggressive fuel curve that it will use when the spark advance is called upon.

I can run 4 to 5 gallons to a make full tank, and not have too much effect. The biggest thing I notice is, overall it runs quieter. Probably due to less thermal energy.

24 lb injectors help at 100%, but you really need more than 9.8:1 C.R. to get better power from it. It just had that feel to it, that it wasn't being all it could be.

As far as going to 10.3:1 by using DOHC piston assy's, it isn't going to hurt anything returning it to 87 octane gasoline.

The daughter's VIN C 1gn has proven that. A PO put a DOHC bottom end in it. Didn't find out until recently I had to replace the head. She has run 87 in it since she owned it, and it never once knocked, the pistons looked to be in very nice condition.

viewtopic.php?t=62521

So as long as the knock sensor is functional, and you want to get the best out of e85, bump it to at least 10.3. You can still go back.

11:1 would probably be better, but then you might have issues if you can't find an E85 station. Possibly you could get away with 93 octane.

Oh, you can legally make 200 gallons of grain alcohol for consumption a year. So with both of you, it could be 400 gallons. Not sure what the laws are for fuel. Probably unlimited, as long as it is denatured. (Adding gasoline, or other so it is unfit fro human consumtion)

What I want to know is, who can consume 200 gallons of 200 proof grain alcohol a year, and still be above ground. :lol:
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Post by John Figueroa » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:50 am

Challenge Accepted... J/k me and my friend are playing around with it right now, you can apply for a permit through TTB.gov for the permit its free to apply, or through the state of washington you can apply for a permit for distilling for human consumption. If you use more than 50 percent I believe domestic ( in state) ingredients than its 100 dollars for the permit. If not its 2000 a year.

I had read about using the 24Lb injectors off of a Jeep 4.0 so that is definitely the way I will go, didnt know about the R/T PCM Ill find one, and as far as boosting Compression, maybe Ill just wait for the next Engine to do that, I haven't picked what type to go with, but whichever one that is Ill plan for it.

so what you are recommending then, is if I decide to stick to the SOHC might want to consider using the DOHC bottom end?
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