Who said Neons can't run e85???

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Post by neon angel » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:17 pm

in the current imprt tuner mag the did an e85 swap ojn an evo 10 and a little tune and gained like 60 whp so can some one post a parts list to what is needed to do a omplete swap
2005 neon sxt 2.0L 16v
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Post by TheRandom1 » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:19 pm

On a Neon? 24# injectors, E85 fuel, common sense, and a wrench that you can use to disconnect the battery.

Run your car low on fuel, fill up on E85, disconnect the battery and swap the injectors, reconnect the battery, drive carefully for a while so the computer can relearn the fuel curve.

No real way to "tune" a Neon without MS or something, however.
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Post by racer12306 » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:52 am

Do NOT expect 60hp.

A turbo application is a perfect condidate for E85. It naturally cools, and has more octane so they can turn up the boost safely.
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Post by esteinmaier » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:59 am

A stock neon barely benefits from it. Just allows more added timing at WOT. It's when you crank up compression or add boost that it becomes friggin magical. I have a good friend running 10.5:1 internals with a slightly milled head, and 20+psi of boost on the stuff. I ran up to 28psi of boost with a good amount of timing on 9.2:1 on it. Something 93 could never come even close to accomplishing.
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Post by racer12306 » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:14 am

E85: A street legal/friendly race fuel
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Post by NickKo » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:25 pm

esteinmaier wrote:A stock neon barely benefits from it. Just allows more added timing at WOT. It's when you crank up compression or add boost that it becomes friggin magical. I have a good friend running 10.5:1 internals with a slightly milled head, and 20+psi of boost on the stuff. I ran up to 28psi of boost with a good amount of timing on 9.2:1 on it. Something 93 could never come even close to accomplishing.
I find that the Mopar Performance PCM's seem to really like E85, too..... :D
(I'm talking 1st gens here)

I'm sure it would work with an AFX PCM, as well.

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Post by esteinmaier » Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:36 am

Yea, as soon as you start tuning it to the edge of gasoline (As an aftermarket ECU does with timing advance) e85 really shines.
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Post by Sp00Lin954 » Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:57 am

i live down in florida and the other day at a local srt4 shop called rage-tek, they had an 05 srt4, with a built bottom end, stock head, stock cam, with a 60 trim turbo and full 3" exhaust, and 1600cc injectors and an aem stande alone make 517 hp to the wheels on i think 24 or 25 pounds

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Post by ZeroChad » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:42 pm

Do you guys ever have cold start problems? I'm about half way through my first tank of e85, and during my last 3 starts I had to stop wait a second and try again to get it to start. I've turned the key to run and let the fuel pump prime a little the last time it did it too.

I'm thinking it might be due to the cold weather we've had the past 3 days. ~40F and raining
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Post by NickKo » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:23 pm

ZeroChad wrote:Do you guys ever have cold start problems? I'm about half way through my first tank of e85, and during my last 3 starts I had to stop wait a second and try again to get it to start. I've turned the key to run and let the fuel pump prime a little the last time it did it too.

I'm thinking it might be due to the cold weather we've had the past 3 days. ~40F and raining
Damp, cold weather is not the greatest thing for ignition systems.
It also won't help E85 vaporize as quickly, either.....

So those two things working together, it may make a difference.....

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Post by novacain » Sun May 17, 2009 10:39 pm

:twisted: Just started checking this site again and saw the E85 topic. I have a 2000 neon sohc Atx. Is this something that would benefit WOT performance, fuel cost/savings and gas milage isnt a factor in my situation. From what I read so far 24lb injectors are needed and reseting the Pcm and it will relearn the fuel curve. I am interested in 3000 rpm to wot performance. Car is stock except no converter and altered O2 sensor location.

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Post by racer12306 » Sun May 17, 2009 10:41 pm

There should be a slight performance increase since alky has more push when it burns compared to gas.
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Post by Adionik » Mon May 18, 2009 3:04 am

You guys should really try mixing it as opposed to running it straight. Putting 2 gallons in my tank along with 93 leaned me up and took away all knock.

E85 is awesome shit.
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Post by ZeroChad » Sun May 24, 2009 4:05 pm

Well its been over a month on e85 now. Things are going great. I'm getting around 23mpg on the stuff. The only problem I've had so far is cold start. I replaced my plugs with iridiums gapped to .055 and its gotten better.

My scanguage has also been reporting more ignition advance now as well.
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Post by PhillyLS1 » Sun May 24, 2009 5:05 pm

I don't know about the small displacement world, but in the v8 and large displacement end of things the E85 fad came and went. Especially with GM vehicles. Most people run e85 to just say they run e85 anymore.

When E85 is used, the vehicle’s fuel efficiency drops by at least 25%—and possibly by as much as 40%.

While that shit is in your tank it's eating the metal/plastic/rubber components. It will eventually clog your injectors and fuel system as well. You have to retrofit your fuel system to run e85. Left wing nutbags will tell you that any fuel is corrosive yadda yadda.

That hard starting issue is going to get worse and worse. Then you're fuel guage will become inaccurate. Good luck on especially cold days. There are some people who say they never have problems, well, they're lucky.
The cold starting is caused because ethanol will not form a rich enough fuel vapor-air mixture to support combustion. The only way to solve this is to add gasoline or ..... lol hydrogen.

If you don't believe me, Underwriters Laboratories Inc. (UL) did extensive research on the stuff. Most of what you hear or read on the internet are from lobbyists or people trying to sell stuff.

Once you retrofit your system and use a hotter plug you "should" be safe. But I've seen some high hp cars return with catastophic failure from gummed up fuel systems and upper RPM lean-out conditions. Like racer said, Meth is a far better alternative.

Just my $0.02 from my experience with the stuff. If you run into any issues pm me.
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Post by esteinmaier » Sun May 24, 2009 8:09 pm

PhillyLS1 wrote:I don't know about the small displacement world, but in the v8 and large displacement end of things the E85 fad came and went. Especially with GM vehicles. Most people run e85 to just say they run e85 anymore.

When E85 is used, the vehicle’s fuel efficiency drops by at least 25%—and possibly by as much as 40%.

While that shit is in your tank it's eating the metal/plastic/rubber components. It will eventually clog your injectors and fuel system as well. You have to retrofit your fuel system to run e85. Left wing nutbags will tell you that any fuel is corrosive yadda yadda.

That hard starting issue is going to get worse and worse. Then you're fuel guage will become inaccurate. Good luck on especially cold days. There are some people who say they never have problems, well, they're lucky.
The cold starting is caused because ethanol will not form a rich enough fuel vapor-air mixture to support combustion. The only way to solve this is to add gasoline or ..... lol hydrogen.

If you don't believe me, Underwriters Laboratories Inc. (UL) did extensive research on the stuff. Most of what you hear or read on the internet are from lobbyists or people trying to sell stuff.

Once you retrofit your system and use a hotter plug you "should" be safe. But I've seen some high hp cars return with catastophic failure from gummed up fuel systems and upper RPM lean-out conditions. Like racer said, Meth is a far better alternative.

Just my $0.02 from my experience with the stuff. If you run into any issues pm me.
I agree, it's not a very cost effective fuel if you don't need the higher octane. When a car is tuned to 87, you just don't see enough benefit until you change things around.

Yes, fuel economy drops. Proportionally to the btu count in the fuel, although an engine set up for it will lose far less economy, as the inefficiencies of a gasoline motor, such as relatively low static compression and low ignition timing advance are largely overcome by the much higher detonation resistance. An N/A motor of 15:1 is not too much to ask from this fuel, which results (if properly tuned) in fuel mileage approaching that of regular gasoline.

Yes, it is. Pump gas is too, although much slower. I guess I'm a nutbag.

Hard starting is true, in the cold. Expect it. Race fuel also starts harder. Up the octane, and the fuel must be hotter to ignite. In a race engine, that's a good thing. I've started mine on 1680cc injectors in below 0 weather with an untuned cranking table. Gasoline would have started better, but the ethanol started nonetheless.

It's been public knowledge the neon fuel level senders are unreliable for years. The E85 accelerates that failure. Mine failed, and I have seen others fail from it.

Doesn't UL make light bulbs, not engines? Sure, there's perspective on anything, but I see very little of this "lobbying" online about e85.

Gummed up fuel systems, I believe. Ethanol inherently cleans things. Gasoline does just the opposite. If you run a car for 10 years on gas, then melt the varnish off all at once with a few tanks of ethanol, I would expect to see that. Methanol would do the same, but faster. Upper RPM lean-out conditions is from people running inadequete fuel systems. Also more pronounced with methanol. Again, also more pronounced with forced induction. My point is that if there's not enough fuel, there's not enough fuel, regardless of the chemical composition of it.

Are you also one of those people that says their best friend filled up with it in a stock neon and his engine blew before he got out of the parking lot?

My view:

Gasoline is the time-honored fuel. It's easy to transport, and all the cars run on it. Too bad it's not available where I live.

E10 is higher octane, mildly corrosive, gives worse gas mileage than gasoline, and is what is sold at the pump.

E85 (E70 in winter) is much higher octane, slightly more corrosive, and is a great street/strip fuel.

Methanol is even higher octane, although it is very corrosive, and not effective at all as a street fuel.

For me, I like the convenience of street driving and being able to put the car in the garage and park it without a process to clear the methanol out. The next best option is e85. 28psi of boost so far without knock, and the only failure I have had is the fuel level sender. Now there is something to be said for my fuel system, being 2 return loops, 2 pumps, fuel tank and surge tank, and all braided lines. But I was running e85 for a long time before I replaced any of my lines with braided and before I made my surge tank.
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Post by PhillyLS1 » Sun May 24, 2009 10:24 pm

Basically you confirmed everything I said. From cold hard starting to sending unit failure. 5 minutes of research tells you that ethanol is a solvent that can degrade elements within the fuel system, it may have a shorter effective life span than regular gas, and it bonds with water molecules better than gasoline, which eventually can pull water into a fuel system

Google "e85 ate my fuel lines" and see the numerous issues people have as a result of this stuff. Guys with boats have it even worse.
Although it does burn "cleaner" like I said, unless you convert the whole fuel system, it will gumm up the system with all the shit it's destroying from a gas system. I should have been more clear.
esteinmaier wrote: Doesn't UL make light bulbs, not engines? Sure, there's perspective on anything, but I see very little of this "lobbying" online about e85.
Uhhh...
(UL) is a U.S. privately owned and operated, independent, third party product safety testing and certification organization.

No lobbyists?
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/greensp ... bbyis.html

And you don't "clear meth out" it's injected at WOT by way of a hobbs switch. The meth is kept in a plastic bottle either in the engine bay or trunk.

You're flat out wrong about "lack of a fuel system." If you get a small amount of blow by the oil lowers the octane rating, and you get detonation. The same will happen with gas, but not at the same destructive level (this happens on the same level as race gas and most people don't have preventitive measures to counter act this). Also Other things to think about include the density and molecular weight of ethanol and gas are different, ethanol is slightly more dense, which is a plus, but it is already oxygenated, which is a minus. So it's "not a lack of a fuel system" it's the instability of the fuel at upper rpms. I'll accept tuning issues, but not "lack of fuel"

Like I said, you want to spend $500.00 to 2K to do e85 right? Fine. However you get the same benefits w/ meth at a much lower price w/o parts malfunctioning on a stock system.
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Post by esteinmaier » Sun May 24, 2009 11:57 pm

PhillyLS1 wrote:Basically you confirmed everything I said. From cold hard starting to sending unit failure. 5 minutes of research tells you that ethanol is a solvent that can degrade elements within the fuel system, it may have a shorter effective life span than regular gas, and it bonds with water molecules better than gasoline, which eventually can pull water into a fuel system

Google "e85 ate my fuel lines" and see the numerous issues people have as a result of this stuff. Guys with boats have it even worse.
Although it does burn "cleaner" like I said, unless you convert the whole fuel system, it will gumm up the system with all the shit it's destroying from a gas system. I should have been more clear.
esteinmaier wrote: Doesn't UL make light bulbs, not engines? Sure, there's perspective on anything, but I see very little of this "lobbying" online about e85.
Uhhh...
(UL) is a U.S. privately owned and operated, independent, third party product safety testing and certification organization.

No lobbyists?
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/greensp ... bbyis.html

And you don't "clear meth out" it's injected at WOT by way of a hobbs switch. The meth is kept in a plastic bottle either in the engine bay or trunk.

You're flat out wrong about "lack of a fuel system." If you get a small amount of blow by the oil lowers the octane rating, and you get detonation. The same will happen with gas, but not at the same destructive level (this happens on the same level as race gas and most people don't have preventitive measures to counter act this). Also Other things to think about include the density and molecular weight of ethanol and gas are different, ethanol is slightly more dense, which is a plus, but it is already oxygenated, which is a minus. So it's "not a lack of a fuel system" it's the instability of the fuel at upper rpms. I'll accept tuning issues, but not "lack of fuel"

Like I said, you want to spend $500.00 to 2K to do e85 right? Fine. However you get the same benefits w/ meth at a much lower price w/o parts malfunctioning on a stock system.
Just a couple points I want to touch on. Oxygenated fuel has a minus? Last I checked, during combustion, the oxygen seperates from the fuel, for all intents and purposes, putting more "air" in via the fuel injectors in a denser form. Even as slight as this may be, I don't see this as a negative. Obviously, a stock system needs to rely on EGO feedback to keep things stoich, but as long as the volume is there, an o2 sensor will still tell an ECU if it's a complete burn or not.

That and blowby causing octane to go down. I see 2 problems with this. First, motor oil, although not suited to burn as a fuel, is much harder to burn than gasoline. That means higher octane. If you don't believe me, go try take a torch to both and see what lights first. Second, blowby (As is combustion passing the rings into the crankcase) causes fuel in the oil, reducing lubricity, not the other way around. I'm hoping there's a variable in this equation I haven't thought of, but none of that seems to make sense to me at all. (Not trying to be an ass, but if I'm wrong, I'm perfectly willing to accept knowledge.)
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Post by PhillyLS1 » Mon May 25, 2009 5:34 am

esteinmaier wrote:
That and blowby causing octane to go down. I see 2 problems with this. First, motor oil, although not suited to burn as a fuel, is much harder to burn than gasoline. That means higher octane. If you don't believe me, go try take a torch to both and see what lights first. Second, blowby (As is combustion passing the rings into the crankcase) causes fuel in the oil, reducing lubricity, not the other way around. I'm hoping there's a variable in this equation I haven't thought of, but none of that seems to make sense to me at all. (Not trying to be an ass, but if I'm wrong, I'm perfectly willing to accept knowledge.)
Blow by happens Boost goes past the rings, it pressurizes the crank case and then blows by the pistons (taking oil with it). This is why certain cars will shoot out the dipstick under boost. It's why SRT-4's have oil on the air filter and why big hp cars run vacuum pumps.
Oil in your fuel mixture is bad. Oil burning is a common cause of high RPM detonation. Oil has a very low Octane rating which detonates at high RPM.

Look up e85 and pre-ignition. You may find it incorrectly called pre detonation.

Anyway, I said my piece I don't wanna jack up this thread more then I did.
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Post by esteinmaier » Mon May 25, 2009 8:48 am

I just spent the last half hour looking for the theory you suggested. I found some people worried about it, but never was blow-by or oil content mentioned. Can you find me a link to this group of people?

We're definitely not disputing that blow-by happens with combustion leaking past the rings, pressuring the crankcase. Yes, symptoms can be shooting dipsticks and oil returning through the valve cover breather or PCV. It's also why the SRT4 guys say that the first mod should be a catch can. (I've seen them damn near fill up an intercooler from it.)

I run a fairly loose motor, seeing as my goal is 700whp in a 2.0L with the newest setup. Because of that, I'm evacutating both valve cover ports right to a catch can.

But then, if blow-by is causing this problem for e85 guys, what would be the difference between e85 and race fuel? Both would be affected the same, wouldn't they?
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Post by TheRandom1 » Mon May 25, 2009 10:19 am

It's my thread and I say clutter it up all you'd like, this is actually useful information, Philly.
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Post by mopar4life » Mon May 25, 2009 10:36 am

This E10 shit around here has ate my fuggin gaskets on my carb. Wish theyd just make that shit go away.
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Post by NickKo » Fri May 29, 2009 12:35 am

esteinmaier wrote:I just spent the last half hour looking for the theory you suggested. I found some people worried about it, but never was blow-by or oil content mentioned. Can you find me a link to this group of people?

We're definitely not disputing that blow-by happens with combustion leaking past the rings, pressuring the crankcase. Yes, symptoms can be shooting dipsticks and oil returning through the valve cover breather or PCV. It's also why the SRT4 guys say that the first mod should be a catch can. (I've seen them damn near fill up an intercooler from it.)
Hey Erik,
Oil getting into the combustion chamber definitely acts like an "octane reducing" agent.

The problem with oil getting into the combustion chamber is that it can ABSORB lots of heat before it finally burns, screwing up the combustion process.

I should know, I used to have a couple of old, oil-burning big-block Mopars.... they would ping, knock, and detonate like crazy.
Ping ping ping ping ping.... knock knock knock knock knock knock (G-d I hate that sound.) :lol:

In Smokey Yunick's book, "Power Secrets", he keeps warning readers about oil getting into the combustion chamber.... because it causes preignition, causing the knocking and detonation, and caved in pistons, hammered bearings, etc.
As Smokey would say, "The next thing you know, they run over the crank". :lol:

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Post by occasional demons » Fri May 29, 2009 7:13 am

Meh, I think the byproduct of oil is the true cause of pre ignition, not the oil itself. Carbon deposits can glow nicely. When an engine is to that point of wear, you really can't pinpoint it to just the oil alone.
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Post by NickKo » Sun May 31, 2009 11:37 am

occasional demons wrote:Meh, I think the byproduct of oil is the true cause of pre ignition, not the oil itself. Carbon deposits can glow nicely. When an engine is to that point of wear, you really can't pinpoint it to just the oil alone.
This is true, I don't disagree.

Smokey Yunick, however, seemed to be making a point that the oil itself will cause preigition.... in a fresh, newly-rebuilt, clean, un-carboned engine, if it gets into the combustion chamber.
It appears to be an "apparent" octane reducer.


Speaking of octane:
Toluol (or Toluene) is known as an "apparent" octane booster.
Which means: Not only is it an octane booster, but it also cleans the combustion chamber as well, cleaning out carbon deposits.

I wonder if E-85 has "apparent" octane qualities & cleans out the combustion chamber as well ?

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Post by ZeroChad » Sun May 31, 2009 2:54 pm

e85 is known to be a supurb cleaning agent for the fuel system. I imagine it would do the same for the Intake valves and combustion chamber. (What now shell nitrogen bullcrap?)

I'm pleased with the results while driving with it so far. This summer, I'm installing megasquirt, so we'll really be able to see how it shines in an NA application.
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:19 am

We just got an E85 pump here in WNY and it is right down the street from my house :rockon:
2.29 a gallon VS $3.03 a gallon for premium....
Even 87 octane is $2.80 a gallon.....
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Post by esteinmaier » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:15 am

Uh oh. I have a feeling that a twin-charged neon will be running alcohol...

Yes, e85 cleans things up well. When I opened up my stock motor after running e85 for a long while, it had almost no carbon in it at all at more than 50k miles.
ASP - First NGC SOHC in the 13s and the 12s. First SOHC neon over 500whp. First NGC Neon on MS.
Winston Churchill wrote:Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.

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BlackRoseRacing
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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:53 am

Update:
Since Christine is parked for the winter I'll give a few updates.....
25lb/hr injectors are good for a relatively stock or mild bolt on engine that does not typically rev over redline.30lb/hr injectors are recomended for Magnum motors with every bolt on and a cam. Christine managed to get 25mpg average on E85 after a few weeks worth of driving. It took the pcm some time to relearn everything but in the end I started getting the same mpg as I did on 93oct.
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esteinmaier
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Post by esteinmaier » Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:24 am

The same mpg as 93? Wow, there must have been something wrong then before. With the same compression, 93 should always yield better mileage than e85. It's only when you get into ridiculously high compression that e85 can come close or surpass 93.

I'm glad those injectors worked as they were supposed to. The clips I sent you were easy enough to figure out, right?
ASP - First NGC SOHC in the 13s and the 12s. First SOHC neon over 500whp. First NGC Neon on MS.
Winston Churchill wrote:Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.

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