How-To: 5 speed swap (for 03-05 NGC), ATX to MTX

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ltr450r
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How-To: 5 speed swap (for 03-05 NGC), ATX to MTX

Post by ltr450r » Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:26 pm

Well I have been asked tons of questions on this since I just went through this process. I see why there's not much info posted on 2gen swaps because it was a lot of research through the wiring diagrams as far as the wiring goes. I will be adding pictures later when I have the time. All this information can be found through searching expect for the wiring stuff which is at the bottom of this how to. The information is just not all in one place, took me hrs and hrs of reading before I even considered trying the swap. I suggest you do the same even though I basically laid it out for you. Hope it helps someone out..


First: Things you will need (for 03+ anyway)
5 Speed Transmission (3.55 or 3.94 etc)
Clutch, Flywheel, throwout bearing
Passenger side Axle from an MTX
Transmission upper mount and shift cable bracket
Transmission brace that runs from back of motor to above the passenger axle
Shift Cables with clips for both ends
MTX shifter (SRT or Standard Neon)
Booger Bushings for shift cables
MTX pedals with at least the bottom interlock switch (SRT or Standard Neon)
Hydraluic clutch setup (master cylinder to slave cylinder)
MTX PCM (preferably out of an 03 or 04)
About 10ft of wire (something like 14-16 gauge)
Haynes Manual (or other brand from a local auto store, you need it for torque specifications and such)
Way to haul the car to a dealership


Unless I'm forgetting something that should get you swapped to a 5 speed. I skipped over a lot of the little stuff like removing the console and I didn't specify everything needed to remove and install transmission. I mainly wanted to get a list of parts that are needed and share my knowledge of the wiring changes that are needed. So if you need a step by step for removing the transmission or shifter you probably don't need to be doing this swap by yourself, consult with a qualified mechanic or hire one to do it.

First off I swapped the pedals out. To me this was the hardest part cause your laying on your back. There's a good write up on how to do this if I can find it I'll post the link here. But I can't seem to find it. But for a heads up pull the brake booster out a good ways its makes things easier.

Also install the clutch master cylinder while the brake booster is pulled out. Tighten clutch master cylinder and pedals, hook the booster back up now.

Next I swapped the shifter. How to posted here viewtopic.php?t=43559. This was by far the easiest part. Also remove the key cylinder lock cable so the key can be removed. Loosen the shift cable square thing from the floor now. Install the MTX shifter.

Now onto the fun part. Jack the car up rather high. Enough to drop the transmission out the bottom. Remove wheels, hubs, axles. Remove airbox, battery and tray. Disconnect all connecters from the transmission. Undo the two ATX cooler lines coming off the front to the radiator. Remove throttle body and bellows tube, starter. Place a jack under the oil pan on the motor to support it while the transmission is out. Now you can take the torque converter bolts out and start loosening the bellhousing. Leave top two bolts in the bellhousing until you get the top transmission mount out (which is kind of a pain). Once you got that mount out you can remove the top two bellhousing bolts and drop the transmission out. The ATX is a heck of a lot heavier so have two people to do this job.

While the transmission is out drop the old shift cable out and install the MTX ones. Also swap the back bracket from the motor to the transmission right above the passenger axle. The ATX brace is to short (pictured below with green arrow).
Image

Tape up the connectors for the ATX and secure them out of the way.

Swap the PCM to the MTX one. Install MTX flywheel and get the transmission ready to be set in (install throwout bearing, clutch, new axle seals, etc) Set the transmission back in the way the ATX came out. Start top two bellhousing bolts and install the top transmission mount. Tighten bellhousing and mounts. Now you can remove the jack from the oil pan on the motor. Rotate the flywheel to tighten the clutch to the flywheel. Transmission is now intact. Check all brackets and bellhousing. Install the slave cylinder and route the line to the master cylinder how you see fit. Install the starter and lower transmission brace (from oil pan to tranmission).

Hook up the shift cables with new bushings and install clips. Find the plug on the back of the motor by the exhaust that goes to nothing. It should be capped off. This is the speed sensor plug in for the 3 prong sensor on the back of the transmission. Plug it up to the speed sensor (pictured below circled in red)
Image

Install the axles and hubs. Remember use the MTX passenger axle.

Thats the majority of the mechanical stuff. Now unto the wiring issues I ran into. You need to wire up the clutch interlock switch thats on the pedals (bottom one). One of the wires needs to be soldered in with the black wire on the brake pedal switch. Thats a ground. Now run a wire through the rubber plug in the firewall. Connect one end to the other wire on the clutch switch. Tie the wire up under the hood so it won't get nicked or cut. Pop the back off of 2nd connector (C3) from the top on the PCM it should be white on the computer side. Once you pop the back off you can see all the wires going in. You then need to slide the next section back which exposes the pins going into the connector. Its hard to explain and kind of tedious. I can get a picture of it soon. You also need to do this to the top connector (C4) which is the green pcm connector. Cut one the of wires on the top connector and pull a pin out. The top connector is the ATX stuff so none of the pins are needed there. Take that pin and insert it into slot/pin 21 (clutch interlock signal) on the 2nd connector (C3) from the top. Put the connectors back together and plug them into the PCM. Heres the page that shows the pins for the computers viewtopic.php?t=44196

Now for the speed sensor. There should be a plug or two plugs (depending on your car, this is where i ran into issues) up by the brake booster. Mine had two plugs but I know the 05 had one big one like pictured below.
Image

Regardless, find that plug or plugs and cut the white with an orange tracer wire up by the connector. Solder a piece of wire to the end (the end going back to the motor) where you cut it. Route this piece of wire however you can where it will be out of the way. Run it down to the bottom black connector (C1) on the PCM. Pop the back cover off the bottom and the top PCM connector. Take a pin out of the top connector (C4) since its the ATX stuff and that connector is no longer used. Solder your new wire to that pin and place it in slot/pin 13 (speed sensor signal) on the bottom PCM connector (C1) cause there is no pin in hole 13. Put the plastic backs back on the connectors and plug them into the computer. Heres the page that shows the pins for the computers viewtopic.php?t=44196.

That will get you running and with a working speedometer and no engine codes. I'm still working on getting the reverse lights wired up, which is the little two prong sensor on the front of the transmission. I haven't sat down and looked through the wiring diagram for them but I will soon.

Now make sure everything is hooked back up and tight. Fill the transmission with fluid now with whatever you want. Theres different opinions here. Some use ATF-4 and other things. I use Mobil 1 High Mileage 10w-30. Install throttle body, battery. Install wheels and lower the car. First get in the car, make sure the shifter is in neutral, and turn the key and make sure the car won't turn over. Now depress the clutch and try and start the car. It should start for 3 seconds and cut off. If it does your golden. Now load the car and haul it to a dealership or someone with a computer who can flash your VIN and skim key into the MTX pcm. Just tell them you put in a used PCM and you need your VIN and Skim key code flashed to it. After that you should be rocking a 5 speed.

If you have questions just PM me and i'll see what i can do. Now go drive and feel the difference...
Last edited by ltr450r on Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by DroopDaddy408 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:38 pm

Very nice!!
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Post by Johny » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:02 am

Nice write up, thinking of doing this sometime soon myself
Pictures would be good for the noobs (like myself :D)
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Post by Guard1an » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:21 pm

just out of curiousity, can't you just have your pcm flashed and change the atx to a mtx via a DRBIII, or starscan ?? what happens if your car didn't come with a chipped key, how would you know if the PCM you got had a skim code ?? and couldn't that just be deleted out of the PCM ?? I apologize for the ignorance, but i don't know how "retuneable/trainable" stock PCM's are,

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Post by occasional demons » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:33 pm

His write up is for an '03 up car. They all have SKIM/Skim keys.

The '02 and older may, or may not have SKIM. The MTX PCM's are not 100% needed for the swap on pre '03. Tho with an '02 it might make life a little easier.

No SKIM can not be undone. It can be added. Once it is SKIM, it can never go back.
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Post by Guard1an » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:08 pm

why isn't a MTX PCM 100% needed ?? why would an '02 make life easier ?? I just finished my 420A swap into my '00 (full write up to come) and i have been itching to do a 5spd swap for awhile,

-Mike
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Post by occasional demons » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:19 pm

For '00 and '01 the 3 speed ATX pcm is very similar to the MTX. There aren't any controls for the ATX, other than TC lock up.
The rev limiter is set at 6000 rpm vs 6750 rpm, IIRC. There are some minor mods to the gear selector, N/S switch, and back up lights. Some of the older threads cover this.

The '02 4 speed ATX has a separate TCM that is linked to the PCM.

The '03 up are all integrated into one controller:Engine and 4 speed ATX.
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Post by stairmaster3001 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:04 pm

so wait im confused. can i use the auto pcm and drive it over after i swap it and then put in the mtx pcm at the dealership and have them flash it and stuff? wont it run fine on the atx pcm just throw thw torque converter code?

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Post by gilly02le » Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:21 am

technically you could, but you need to make wiring changes for the mtx pcm, that would need to happen After you took the atx pcm out. Plus you wouldn't have a speedo, and you'd have to temporarily hook up a switch for the neutral saftey switch..
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Post by occasional demons » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:36 am

gilly02le wrote: Plus you wouldn't have a speedo,
The 3 speed ATX uses basically the same signal/very close location as the MTX. So the speedo problem is only if you are going from the 41te to MTX.

Possibly the thread title could be changed to include "NGC " as it doesn't really include the pre '03 issues. Not that it is the fault of the OP, it is just what they had to work with.

Edit: There are going to be all kinds of codes using the NGC ATX pcm without the ATX. It is far more than the speedo and N/S gear select sense. There are multiple inputs it is looking for. Going with the MTX pcm and making the needed wiring changes is the way to go.
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Post by ltr450r » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:07 pm

occasional demons wrote: Possibly the thread title could be changed to include "NGC " as it doesn't really include the pre '03 issues.
Thread title changed..

What year car are you swapping into Guard1an? A 00 or 02?
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Post by bluzfan92 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:34 pm

ok, i've been looking around and i cannot find any help for a mtx swap for an 01. If anyone has some info that could help me it would be greatly appreciated. and if i have to start a new thread i will. thanks all

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02 atx to mtx

Post by BenAthar » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:14 am

Guard1an wrote:why isn't a MTX PCM 100% needed ?? why would an '02 make life easier ?? I just finished my 420A swap into my '00 (full write up to come) and i have been itching to do a 5spd swap for awhile,

-Mike
I've been thinking of doing this as well. Nice summer project to do. waiting for an '02 auto to manual swap. (hate automatics.. :cussing: )
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Post by gilly02le » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:22 pm

can someone confirm that there is a difference between the 4spd passenger axle, and 5spd. I thought they interchange, so long as it was a 4 speed, not a 3spd.
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Post by ltr450r » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:28 pm

Pretty sure they are different. When I glanced at them the ends for the transmission looked like different lengths. And advance auto parts says the passenger axles are different part numbers.. whether they work idk
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Post by gilly02le » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:30 pm

alright well i'll see what i can figure out at the parts store. Take my old axle and see what the difference is.
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Post by gilly02le » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:04 pm

Just finished my swap today, a few tips i can add to all of this.

If you are going from a 4spd atx, to a 5spd, you Can re-use your stock axles without issue. The Auto PCM from my 2002 works perfectly fine with the new mtx. Aside from having no speedometer, which can be fixed by swapping the PCM for a mtx unit. There is no 4k rpm rev limit, revs to 6250 without issue.

If you are installing a non-modular clutch setup, you need to jack the trans up to the motor, with the diff lifted higher then the bellhousing, or you'll never get it to clear the frame and clutch assembly at the same time. Took me a while to get it in there even still. What i mean is if you try to re-install it onto the engine the same way you took the atx out, you'll Never get it to fit in from below. You absolutely have to have the diff housing raised up toward the direction of the brake booster, when you jack it up into place. This allows you to clear the diff past the crossmember, and get it around the clutch/pressure plate without much issue.
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Post by c987long » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:12 pm

hi guys a quick question, i am swapping my 01 r/t trans to my 2000 motor and there seems to be a difference to where the fly wheel bolts up, the spacing between the bolts is slightly different. can someone shed some light on this.
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Post by NickKo » Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:01 pm

c987long wrote:hi guys a quick question, i am swapping my 01 r/t trans to my 2000 motor and there seems to be a difference to where the fly wheel bolts up, the spacing between the bolts is slightly different. can someone shed some light on this.
The bolt holes are 'asymmetrical'..... Not symmetrical.

Keep turning the flywheel, until all the holes line up right. :wink:


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Post by Public Disturbance » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:34 pm

Would the pedal assembly out of a 2001 neon work for my 2005 se

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Post by occasional demons » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:39 pm

Yes.

2001 to 2005 SE/SXT are the same. Even an SRT pedal assy will work. Ask Dante.
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Post by D-Railed_Neon » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:15 pm

POST RESURECTION so, quick question. My 02 es has a newer motor >80k and is a manual. Extensive body damage has me wondering if maybe I should look into buying an 03+ with high miles and swapping motor, tranny, all supporting hardware and of course PCM.(I have no idea if my car is SKIM or not :( ) all 03+ for sale are abundant in this area but, seem to always pop up as autos. My question is if I were to go that route but say use the 03+ motor in the new car so I could build my 02 motor with some proper horse giving internal upgrades in the meantime. Could I run the NGC motor with my 02 tranny and PCM? From what I understand I would need to change a few sensors and use the 02 engine harness, and SKIM module and ignition cylinder/keys. Am I correct in all this? What I else am I missing. Obviously an 02 rolling chassis would be ideal but, cash cost and driving difference would be the biggest concerns there. Need opinions and advice. Please and thank you, guys. :tardbang:
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Post by occasional demons » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:31 am

The MTX will bolt up to all years.
Could I run the NGC motor with my 02 PCM?
You cannot use the '03 engine with the '02 controls. or vice versa. The cranks, and blocks are different.

The '02 engine will work, if you us MS to control it, but it would not pass emissions.
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Post by D-Railed_Neon » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:29 pm

Sad face. well there goes that dream :( oh well, thanks for the quick response
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Post by occasional demons » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:28 pm

Better than having already bought an '03 + engine, only to find out it won't work without converting your wiring and PCM. :)
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Post by D-Railed_Neon » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:49 pm

This is true. I guess I will have to keep an eye out for an 01-02 rolling chassis then...thanks for the heads up though :thumbup:
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Post by stdlystdmufn » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:30 am

ok i got my back up lights working. ok all you do is take two terminals out of the transmission range connector (its the square connector and if you look inside it at the pins it is the square ones). put both of the wires you just cut onto the pins inside the backup lamp switch. run one wire into the interior of the car through a grommet. and run the other wire to a switched 12v circuit that is only active when the ignition is in the on position (use a test light to find one). now back to the wire you ran into the car. remove the kick panal, its the one that your hood release is in. there is a grey connector there find pin 6. pin 6 has a vt/bk wire, this is the wire you want to run the wire to. to test it turn the ignition on and put the trans in rev and the lights should be on. if the lights stay on after the ignition is turned off then you ran your pos end of the switch to the wrong pos circuit.

EDIT: the backup lamp switch is a simple switch so it doesn't matter which terminal you make the pos or neg. also you should probably fill the backup switch with silicone to waterproof it and to better secure the wires.
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Post by titansxt » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:14 am

For those who swapped, do you need any extra nuts and bolts from the 5 speed car or do your ATX bolts still get used?
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Post by gilly02le » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:35 am

I just reused the atx bolts, they are slightly longer but all fit fine since most of the bolt holes on the block are threaded all the way through.
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Post by titansxt » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:17 pm

Good to know. Thanks.
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