Car Will Not Start.

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phlapjack
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Car Will Not Start.

Post by phlapjack » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:04 am

Hello hello!


Lexicon:
P/N = Park Neutral Safety Switch
VSS = Vehicle Speed Sensor
HID = High Intensity Discharge


First up the car: 2005 Dodge SX2.0 SOHC, not HO
Things Not Factory installed prior to failure: HID projector lights (with relay 25A Fuse), LED Tails (MoPerf ones), LED Dome Light.
Transmission: Automatic - 4 Speed.
SKIM Key module = Yes
Canada = Yes. Blame it as much as you like

(HID projectors have been in for a very long time.)


Alright well down to business:


Awhile ago, I lent my mother the car to go shopping.

A few hours later (after it got dark of course), she called me and told me the car would not start.

When I got there, I checked the key, sure enough, it would not engage the starter at all.

She said it made a wicked backfire when she was nearly at the mall. (Plugs later confirmed bad, but that was upcoming anyway)

So after trying to start in all the Gears available (P/R/N/D/3/1), I got impatient and jumped the starter from the fuse box.

The car sprung to life, I drove it home with only a very mild concern.
She ran great the whole drive home too.



The next day, I tried to jump just as I did the previous night, but it just kept cranking with no result.


A week later I got a chance to check Air, Fuel, and Spark. First 2, No problem, but there is no spark.


Few weeks go by, receive Champion plugs, granatelli wires and coil check voltimeter on coil, nice n purty.

Gap plugs, and install everything, plug coil in.

Try to start car: Nothing

Check spark, still nothing.

Check OBD2 Scanner and On-Off-On-Off-On: Says some nonsense about Fuel Pump, check and Fuel Pump is fine.

SKIM dot is not on.

I am using a battery out of a GMC Jimmy with much better CCA etc than the standard ATV battery for a Neon.



I have read alot of stuff on these forums, google, etc and have heard everything from Park Neutral Safety Switch faulty (no ground for ECU), to Cam/Crank Sensor just failing and not bothering to let the rest of the car know. Lastly, the checking Grounds thing.


I'd appreciate any help, particularly in the location of P/N ... I got a picture dictating where the range sensor is, but the haynes manual(s) in my possession only talk about a VSS.


Things I have not done since replacing Coil:

-Checked Grounds (did that prior mind you)
-Checked Fuses (did that prior mind you)
-Convinced myself to take it to the Stealership, or Canadian Tire.


I'm close to taking it to Canadian Tire, after I ground the P/N and make sure that is not the problem.

Anyone have a picture of the P/N for a ATX 2005 SX2.0? or maybe just the coloured wiring indicating the ground?


I bought her new with 5 KM's on the Odo, she took my first born home from the hospital, I'm very attached to this car. Again any and all help is appreciated, even if it comes with a dash of scorn.

Thanks again,

Jack

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Post by occasional demons » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:25 am

The P/N switch will only keep the starter from cranking the engine, so it is not your problem, since you can crank it, but you are not getting spark. Edit : Nevermind, reading fails me this morning.

Are all the fuses under the hood (PDC), and in the car good?

On the coil connector, there are three wires. The center wire should be 12 volts. The two outer wires are grounded via the PCM to fire the coil. If you do not have 12 volts at the center wire, you will not get spark. If the PCM is not alternately grounding the two outer wires, you will not get spark.

As far as fuel, are you saying you have fuel, because the FP kicks on, or can you actually smell it? The same wire that powers the coil also powers the injectors. So if there is no power there, the injectors are also not firing.

On the head near the Cam position sensor/above the exhaust mani., there should be a little black capacitor bolted on, with a wire attached. Unplug that wire, be sure your fuses aren't blown, and see if it starts. That wire is the same circuit as the injectors/coil. Sometimes the cap will short to ground, and blow the fuse.

The P/N switch is on the ATX near the front. It is referred to as the range selector switch in the FSM.
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mr one world

Post by phlapjack » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:40 am

you are a god sir

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Post by phlapjack » Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:29 am

As far as fuel, are you saying you have fuel, because the FP kicks on, or can you actually smell it? The same wire that powers the coil also powers the injectors. So if there is no power there, the injectors are also not firing.

fuel pump does kick on, yes. there is fuel in the tank. havent gotten anyone to put an ear upto the tank mind you.

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Re: mr one world

Post by occasional demons » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:12 am

phlapjack wrote:you are a god sir
Only if it fixed the problem. Even then it is debatable. :lol:

If you can hear the pump kick on, chances are good you have fuel pressure. (Of some kind)
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Post by phlapjack » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:46 pm

Yeah, I've read through my Haynes manual twice (1 book, 1 from 2004 and another from 2005 same manual).

Gods don't need to fix problems, they just need to give people hope.

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Post by Danteneon » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:47 pm

Step 1 - Get a better service manual.


Haynes are junk.
If I could just figure out how to meld the Outback and the Neon into one car...

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Post by racer12306 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:51 pm

Danteneon wrote:Step 1 - Get a better service manual.


Haynes are junk.
x infinity
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Post by Chris04sxt » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:57 pm

PM'd you with a link that will be helpful. Go light that Haynes on fire somewhere.
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Post by occasional demons » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:10 pm

Chris04sxt wrote:PM'd you with a link that will be helpful. Go light that Haynes on fire somewhere far away from your neon.

Fixed. :lol:
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dblsg wrote:ya'll a bunch of post whores
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Post by Chris04sxt » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:14 pm

occasional demons wrote:
Chris04sxt wrote:PM'd you with a link that will be helpful. Go light that Haynes on fire somewhere far away from your neon.

Fixed. :lol:
:thumbup:
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phlapjack
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lol

Post by phlapjack » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:55 am

if he is a god, you sir are science!

have to d/l this to phone so i can read it while camping.


very much appreciative!

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phlapjack
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checked ignition wire at coil

Post by phlapjack » Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:51 pm

reading .44volts at ignition wire to coil

gonna read the manual so kindly provided from above (seriously sir, you are science! )




Image

anyone suspect on what it could be?

i talked to my dad about it yesterday he suspects the p/n really is the whole problem and i should go ahead and ground it, anyone know what gauge wire it takes???

newbtasticly yours,

jack

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Re: checked ignition wire at coil

Post by occasional demons » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:11 pm

phlapjack wrote: i talked to my dad about it yesterday he suspects the p/n really is the whole problem and i should go ahead and ground it, anyone know what gauge wire it takes???
Page 8W-31-5

20 gauge. My guess is the BK/WT wire needs to go to ground. Problem is, you will need to un-ground it when shifting into gear. I'm sure the PCM will not be happy seeing two signals.

That switch is on the ATX, so you just can't conveniently switch it without running a wire into the cabin. I would get a range sensor from RockAuto, or AZ and swap it out, or check the signal to the starter relay. Check the ignition switch circuit to be sure that is actually working.

You prolly don't have power at the coil/injectors because the ASD relay is not energized.
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phlapjack
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hmm

Post by phlapjack » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:20 pm

when going into gear?


would say, installing a military toggle switch connected between the grounding location and the p/n work?

have toggle switch on, start car, turn toggle switch off, shift into gears?

or would it just die?

also: cant do autozone, canadialand... i'll give esquimalt auto a ring...

so happy real progress is being made

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Post by occasional demons » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:53 pm

Switching the ground from the P/N sense after it has started will not do anything. It only needs that to start. It may not rev limit in park/neutral tho. IIRC, in those two positions the PCM limits the engine to around 3000 rpm.

4659676AC SENSOR, Transmission Range $42.85

4659678 O ring $2.60

I would back probe the connector with a paper clip, and ground it to see if it does crank/start. Leave it plugged in to the sensor. If it works, then I would just buy a new sensor. If it doesn't then you have some more searching to do.
Bill
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phlapjack
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wish i could take a picture but dark

Post by phlapjack » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:09 am

well got the airbox off to get a better "view". it's the rectangular connector yes? not the round one beside it?

if yes, gonna splice in like mentioned.


really appreciate your help man!

need to dig up a picture more worthy than science

Image

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phlapjack
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well hmm!

Post by phlapjack » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:32 pm

so i tapped into the black n white wire not far up from the trs plug, then grounded it to the front. went to try to start it, and nothing.

thinking maybe i should make a video to post, found...debating cutting and completely grounding instead of T'ing into it

edit:
checked to make sure the bk/wt wire got the ground, it did.

weird thing, i checked the centre of ignition wire where it connects to the coil, with the battery not connected to the rest of the power system, it reads 12.3v but when i connect the battery back up to the power system, it reads .44v, it still will not let me start it, even with pn grounded with a t-in..thinking it may be time to snip

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Post by occasional demons » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:48 pm

As long as it is making contact at the Tee splice, it will be the same as grounded. Clamp the splice with a clean pair of vise grips if you want to be sure. Tho cutting it might be best to repair the exposed wire with some solder/shrink tubing.

The problem may just be a bad ign. switch. Find the pin out for the ign switch, and verify it is making contact.

How did you jump the starter from the fuse box?

What do you mean when you get 12 volts with the battery unhooked?
and <1volt with it connected? are you going from battery negative, or battery positive with the test lead?
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try to explain

Post by phlapjack » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:14 am

well the whole 12v .44v thing is just something i observed

i disconnected the negative terminal on the battery from the car

with the positive cable still connected to everything, i firmly hold the positive lead on the multimeter to the centre connector inside the ignition wire connector that connects to the coil ( the one where the centre is + and the outer 2 are - ).

next i place the negative lead to the battery negative. if i do that, the centre wire reads 12.36volts


when i connect the negative terminal back to the battery and test again (negative lead connected to any ground) it reads .44v



[if you are looking into your engine bay from the front of the car]
for the starter jumping, i pop out the relay in the fuse box under the hood designated for the starter, then with a piece of 18gauge wire, i strip the ends of the insulation, then i twirl the "copper" so its not frayed at either end. i put the key into the ignition and turn it to where the key would rest for "run" or when the car is running

once i feel they are good enough, i prop the first end into the bottom right "slot" and then the other end into the top left "slot"


with the battery connected this engages the starter. seeing as it will not try to engage the starter from inside the cabin at the steering wheel (original problem) it's the way i got it to go.


Fuse Box Relay (Starter)

==========
| [ x ] [ ] |
| |
| [ ] |
| |
| [ ] [ x ] |
==========


That didnt come out very well, but you get the idea hopefully..Just got off of work and probably not the best time to try to explain.


i must emphatically insist my gratitude for your help!

maybe in the morning i will be able to better explain, or post a video link to youtube or something

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Post by InPsychOut » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:54 pm

I'm having a similar problem, but in an MTX '05 SXT. Well, I don't know how similar, but what caught my attention is that I also have about .44 volts at the center ignition wire. No cranking, no fuel pump kicking on, haven't checked spark, but that won't be working either with only .44 volts to it. I jumpered my starter from the starter relay circuit exactly the way you described, and it cranked like a champ but wouldn't fire. I'm fairly certain that my ASD relay is not getting energized, but I don't know why. I'd love to hear an update on this thread, if there is any.

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