COP ignition setup (Coil On Plug)

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:38 pm

Due to a number of people complaining about misfire problems or whats better, MSD,Screamin Demon..etc...
Ive been looking into a COP setup. That would give us 35K volts per plug Vs a shared 35K between 2 cylinders. This would help with those having issues of blowing out the spark and be a better option Vs the stock replacement aftermarket coils that are already out there.
Ive spent the past week researching available option C.O.P. setups and researching the plug and play design that would not require anything aftermarket...all plug and play...
Throw your 2 cents here for suggestions and or idea's.....

all_motor_mike · Post by **all_motor_mike** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:53 pm

i say go for it

Kevin_GP · Post by **Kevin_GP** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:09 pm

I am going to go ahead and say that 90+% are not at the power level needed for an ignition beyond what we have. On the other hand eventually I will need something more than stock soon

INVUJerry · Post by **INVUJerry** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:47 pm

Do it (first vote BTW)

01NeonSnooZer · Post by **01NeonSnooZer** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:36 pm

Do it and let me know some details cuz this sounds good.

bigbird · Post by **bigbird** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:50 pm

post some details on this or examples of this on other cars!

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:20 pm

My vote = don't waste your time

Post by **occasional demons** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:46 pm

May not be much gain, but then again why do other stock motors have COP factory installed?

Post by **racer12306** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:55 pm

It would definitly be interesting. Don't know if it would help much, but maybe if it did help with the misfire problem, then it would be great.

I say do it if you have the extra time/money.

OB · Post by OB » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:30 am

Interesting idea (and one that ive put some thought into as well), but not worth the effort IMO. Ignition is far from being one of the shortcomings of the 2.0L. The wasted spark system does just fine, even with elevated power levels. Look at the srt4.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:08 am

Look at the srt4

There's tons of posts from them having spark issue's or more the lack of...

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:10 pm

This is going to be a lot of work, for little to no gain.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:11 pm

I've already got the COP's donated, now its time to see what a stock pcm can handle without blowing the coil drivers.....

OB · Post by OB » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:57 am

BlackRoseRacing wrote:
Look at the srt4
There's tons of posts from them having spark issue's or more the lack of...

News to me. Then again, what stock ignition CAN handle the 3-500hp a lot of those srt guys are putting down? I dont see why a decent amplifier (like those from MSD) couldnt keep up.

The PCM isnt going to be the issue. It doesnt have to directly deal with all that voltage/current. I was gonna ask you how you planned on getting the stock drivers to run the COP's. Whats the plan?

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:19 am

The stock PCM can only drive a wasted spark system, so when you wire up your COP modules it's going to have to be wired in a wasted spark configuration anyways. Unless you're running an aftermarket ignition to sequencially fire the plugs it's completely useless.

Also, check the .org, I think this has been done already.

OB · Post by OB » Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:27 am

^Yesiree bob, you'll need to come up with a way to mate the PCM with drivers and maps from a COP car, or use a standalone that will already be equipped to run any of the above.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:28 am

It has been done over on the ORG with M.S. but not a stock system...
Keep the info coming

I should have done this before I spent the $$ on the mustang TB adapter I did back in feb..
The plan is to use 4 3.5 V-6 C.O.P's or 2 Hemi coils designed for wasted spark...
I have seen some 1GN's with standalone run 4 C.N.P's but very few with C.O.P's and from what I'm reading the DSM guy's with the forced induction setups are having postive results with C.o.p's Vs there C.N.P's....

Top pic uses a 2.7 coil while the bottom 2 used a 3.5, they are 30k=35k volts a piece..

http://www.slowboyracing.com/estore/pro ... 376&page=1

https://secure.buschurracing.com/catalo ... 0e57befad2

MoparNeonMan · Post by **MoparNeonMan** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:15 pm

so what would it take for us to pull the setup on the toyota motor shown and use it on ours??

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:34 pm

I would thing you could wire a circuitboard so it only fires one plug at a time out of the two; something that would go inbetween the coils and the stock wiring harness plug.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:05 am

MoparNeonMan wrote:so what would it take for us to pull the setup on the toyota motor shown and use it on ours??

The pic above is for a 4G63 DSM motor, those are pics of someone already installing them on DSM's....

OB · Post by OB » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:09 am

Since the stock DIS coil only uses a small amount of voltage to fire the wasted spark to the second cylinder, I doubt the voltage difference to the main cylinder will be as large as you might think. What's the typical firing voltage of our coils, around 30-35k? I wouldnt be surprised if a whopping 5k was sent to the companion. Thats a lot of money and time for a few thousand volts. The difference would be worth it in a race app, but is it realistic on a street car?

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:45 pm

Stock coil pack puts out approx 40kV, IIRC it only takes a couple thousand kV to fire the corresponding cylinder.

The only advantage would be when you go sequencial, then you have a longer dwell time on the coil, but that's lost when they're wired up wasted.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:20 am

Stock coil and MSD coil put out the same voltage, around 35-36K volts
The screamin demon I think is the only one that puts out a little bit more...

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:05 pm

I got it all wired up, used my spare pcm and it ran!

but only on 2 cylinders...
For some reason even running the coil packs together...
Cylinders 1&4
Cylinders 2&3
Wired up so both coils receive the same voltage and trigger at the same time, only one out of the pair would fire...
Even installing a capacitor inline with the coils like the dsm guys do would not help with the situation. The next step is either try a DSM ignitor like others use with themegasquirt setup or try to get my hands on 2 HEMI ignition coils and knock our plug wires down from 4 to 2....
Yes this is crude testing since i'm on a major budget right now but I'm doing what I can...
Any info or suggestions are apreciated....

PS - as of now my car wont crank, I installed the stock pcm back into the car and the injectors,fuel pump,etc...wont trigger...I'll post details tomorrow as I receive them...

Update Sunday morning....
Aparently running the car yesterday with four coil packs blew the 20amp ASD fuse, I missed that last night in the dark

Next step is like I mentioned above, get a DSM ignitor or a couple of HEMI coil packs.....stay tuned and keep the info coming

Total cost invested to date - $0.00
Total time invested - HRS of online research....

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:33 pm

Do you have the coils wired in series or parallel?

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:08 am

They were wired in a parallel circuit...

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:15 pm

May have to try it in series, up the resistance to reduce the current and stop blowing the fuse.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:59 pm

fixitmattman wrote:May have to try it in series, up the resistance to reduce the current and stop blowing the fuse.

definately noted, when I get a chance I will try that next....

OB · Post by OB » Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:39 pm

If they're wired in series the VD at each coil will continue to lower progressively, giving uneven voltage to each spark plug. I dont think that's a good idea. Each coil acts as a load, using up a certain amount of voltage. The first coil in line will surely use all 12V supplied to it, so I doubt you'll even get more than #1 to fire. Thats just my theory though.

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:50 am

Yeah you're almost right, voltage will be half at each coil in series. What I think is going to have to happen is you'll need to up the amperage on the fuse to compensate for the larger current draw of 2 additional coils. Of course this requires all the legwork of checking the wiring diagrams and the pysical circuit to make sure it's ok to handle the additional current.

2GN.ORG

COP ignition setup (Coil On Plug)

C.O.P setup for the SOHC

COP ignition setup (Coil On Plug)