problems with my swap car...

TNK · Post by **TNK** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:44 pm

05 SXT, swap from an 04 SRT...

Turbo was replaced after losing a seal in turbo, causing to it smoke constantly. Now it smokes on occasion, ive battled vacuum lines and a shoddy ass install on the fuel line to the fuel rail, and the car still isnt running good, and its still getting oil in the turbo. Its not constant though. Where should i turn 1st? What am i missing?

SlvrACR · Post by **SlvrACR** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:58 pm

The line going from your valve cover to your intake. Mine on hard turns was leaking into intake pipe and dripping into turbo. I since have put a filter and capped the intake

TNK · Post by **TNK** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:52 pm

Thats how mine is setup too.

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:01 am

SlvrACR wrote:The line going from your valve cover to your intake. Mine on hard turns was leaking into intake pipe and dripping into turbo. I since have put a filter and capped the intake

That is just the air make up for the PCV system. The line from the PVC valve is what sucks oil/vapors into the IM. If there is oil accumulating in the IM plenum, it will get sucked into the cylinders on hard acceleration. It is getting in after the turbo, instead of before it.

The air make up can leak oil, I understand, but that is only when the pressure in the crankcase exceeds what the PVC can pull out, and under boost, the PVC isn't pulling anything out. If there isn't a check valve, it will pressurize the crankcase. The pressure has to go somewhere....

Blivitt02 · Post by **Blivitt02** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:19 am

I've never really heard of this happening on a stock turbo but... Agp was having issues with their turbos smoking and it ended up being as a result of a faulty PCV system. What can happen is if your PCV system is not working correctly it can build a positive pressure in the crank case that doesn't allow the turbo to drain properly. The positive pressure in the crank case is going to try to push out any way it can, whether it is through seals (mains), past pistons, or other orfices (turbo drain line, up through turbo) it will pick the path of least resistance. If the path just so happens to be the drain line it will create a situation where the oil won't drain out of the turbo and will cause smoking. DCR has proved in the past how important negative pressures in our crank cases are, this is one reason why.

Here is a good example, if you are a drinker, or if you have ever gone to a college party you have probably seen people funneling. Imagine the funnel being the turbo with oil in it, the tube to your mouth is the drain line, and your mouth is the crank case. If you were to create a positive (blow out) pressure in your mouth where would the beer go? either nowhere or in the opposite direction. If you were to start drinking said beer (negative pressure) it would flow out of the funnel (turbo), out of the tube (drain line) and into your gullet (crank case).

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:10 pm

So you're sayin' if it was his wanker, he'd have a nasty case of blue balls.

Blivitt02 · Post by **Blivitt02** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:10 pm

Precisely, All sorts of backed up

TNK · Post by **TNK** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:32 pm

Ok, so if that is what's causing it, how do i fix it?

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:32 pm

I believe there is some kind of check valve for the PVC line, to keep boost from getting into the crankcase.

A catch can will help keep most of the normal oil build up out of the IM.

titansxt · Post by **titansxt** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:31 pm

If you have a car that resembles a James Bond tricked out SRT-4, please take the time and check this out.

A turbo drains its oil from gravity, nothing more and nothing less. If there is any restriction in the turbo's drain path back to the pan, oil will build up in the center housing. This oil is going to take the path of least resistance and will leak out of the turbine's side piston ring and turn into blue smoke coming out of the exhaust.

Most of your friends are going to tell you that you have a blown seal, and that your turbo needs to be rebuilt. 99% of the time, there is nothing wrong with the turbo. We get turbos in the shop everyday for rebuild because of the mysterious "blown seal" theory that lingers around every intarweb forum that deals with any turbo vehicle. These turbos are perfectly fine, and don't need a rebuild 99% of the time.

I'm putting this explaination together to help all of you save time and energy before you feel the need to send a turbo back to us for rebuild.

Lately, we've noticed a trend with some of the available "check valves" in this market that some shops are selling. Moreso, there are part numbers floating around this forum from industrial supply companies that many people are buying and installing. Most of these check valves will not work properly to allow enough crankcase venting so the turbo can sufficiently drain.

We've done some testing here with a local car and we were able to figure out what was going on. The very popular 1/4"NPT check valve has a .200" valve that is insufficient in allowing the engine to pull enough crankcase pressure when in vacuum. This extra crankcase pressure under vacuum conditions will cause the turbo to leak oil past the piston ring and results in blue smoke out your exhaust. Get rid of this size check valve as all your are doing are causing more problems for yourself.

That same company offers a check valve with 3/8" NPT ports and the valve size is .460". This valve is FTW, period.

We put the 1/4"NPT check valve on the car, let it sit at idle for 30 minutes. After about 20 minutes, the car started smoking, and got progressively worse over the next 10 minutes. Keep in mind, this is on a car that never smoked before. We then installed the 3/8" NPT check valve on the car and let it idle for 30 minutes. No smoke at all. We then put the smaller check valve back in, and instantly started smoking again.

Please make sure you know what you're doing, and don't just listen to everyone else. If you have questions, any of us here at AGP can answer them.
__________________

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:45 pm

There you have it.

You definitely want a check that has a light enough spring to allow vacuum freely past it. Boost will help close it. Prolly want to locate it in an area warm enough to keep water vapors from freezing it, if winter driven. This is an issue with my non boosted engine's catch can. It will occasionally freeze water in the lines.

Blivitt02 · Post by **Blivitt02** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:42 pm

In other posts AGP has stated to stay away from aftermarket check valves all together, and just replace the factory PCV valve when it needs to be replaced (~15 dollars). When it is in good shape the factory valve is more than adequate. TNK, if you are asking what you should be looking for, it is the hard plastic elbow that is on the valve cover, front passenger side. The hose that is connected to it runs to the IM near the TB. Remove the hose from the elbow, turn CCW to remove, and then you can clean it up and blow in it to see if the check valve is working correctly, air should only be allowed to move through it in 1 direction.

TNK · Post by **TNK** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:11 pm

The car already has a catchcan off the PCV, should i try replacing the PCV, and remove the catchcan from the circuit and see if it helps?

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:24 pm

It isn't going to hurt. It would be easy enough to bypass for testing. Unless something is keeping full vacuum from going through the catch can, I doubt it will make any difference.

Maybe check the drain line from the turbo, to be sure nothing has gotten in there to restrict the flow.

TNK · Post by **TNK** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:01 pm

Just to be sure, that is the black hard line held on to the bottom of the turbo housing by 2 10mm bolts, correct?

Post by **Canada** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:00 am

Correct.

Blivitt02 · Post by **Blivitt02** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:19 am

If it were me, I'd spend the 15 bucks to try a PCV valve before I took the drain line off the turbo, it's pretty tight back there and it is more than likely clear of debris.

titansxt · Post by **titansxt** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:08 pm

Is it a factory turbo tink?

If not, get this.

http://www.agpturbo.com/product.php?pro ... 258&page=1

TNK · Post by **TNK** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:50 pm

It is the factory turbo. I have a Kinetic WGA that was delivered from Modern yesterday, and installed a new PCV today. Drove 2 minutes down the road to work and dumped smoke out the back after a hard left turn to back into a parking spot. Gonna put the WGA in this weekend and redo my vac lines, and see if that drain line is plugged. Im also gonna take the catchcan outta the loop.

TNK · Post by **TNK** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:49 am

How is the factory PCV system setup? I was talking to my Turbo Dodge buddy and he thinks it may not be set up right...

Blivitt02 · Post by **Blivitt02** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:17 am

If you are standing in front of the car, looking at the engine, there should be a tube on the right side of the valve cover that goes to the factory air box/cai/or removed and replaced with a filter. Near the oil fill cap on the left side of the valve cover is a 90* plastic elbow that threads into the valve cover, this is the PCV valve, if you test it you will see it is just a check valve. From the PCV valve there should be a rubber line that connects to the intake manifold near the throttle body. That's it. When the car is running in vacuum the PCV is open and there is a negative pressure in the crank case, when the car goes into boost the PCV valve closes (otherwise boost pressure would go into the crank case!) causing a positive pressure in the crank case.

TNK · Post by **TNK** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:21 am

See, i think im getting boost into the crank case, pushing oil past the rings. Im going to set my system up back to stock. Currently its going from a brand new PCV, into a catchcan by the battery, then to the IM. And the line from the VC to CAI is removed with a filter on the VC.

Blivitt02 · Post by **Blivitt02** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:15 pm

See, it's prob not rings, since the PCV connects to the valve cover that positive pressure is more likely going to blow oil by the valve seals than it is past the rings. (IMO) Eitherway you can check that with a leak down test. What kind of mileage do you have on this engine? Either way, I can't think of a good reason why your catch can would be the problem, and if you put a new PCV valve on there I highly doubt that is the issue now anyway. One sure fire way to figure out if it is an issue with the crank case is to rig up a pressure gage to the VC somehow and watch it while you drive, if the pressure goes positive while you create a positive pressure in the intake side (boost condition) then you know it's the problem.

TNK · Post by **TNK** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:31 pm

Engine has 47k, turbo has 12k.

TNK · Post by **TNK** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:21 pm

Redid the PCV system today. Removing the catch can from the equation, redoing the breather and putting a cap on the CAI and still smoking. Could i have been extremely unlucky and replaced a bad turbo with another bad turbo? What else should i check into before replacing the turbo again?

Blivitt02 · Post by **Blivitt02** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:18 pm

Was the "new" turbo in fact a "new used" turbo? Did you ever check the oil drain from the turbo?

TNK · Post by **TNK** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:23 pm

It was a "new used" turbo. And not yet. Thats my next hurdle.

Blivitt02 · Post by **Blivitt02** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:27 pm

See the problem is with the stock turbos is they really were too small for a 2.4L to begin with, then people start cranking up the boost and they surge very easily... This is extremely hard on the center section (obviously) and I wouldn't be surprised if the turbo you got was in need of a rebuild. I'd say TNK, your only real feasible option is to go big turbo

At least that's what I told myself when I got tired of PTB

gtxtreme19 · Post by **gtxtreme19** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:33 pm

You've clearly got a bad kinuter valve, and you aint holding your mouth right

TNK · Post by **TNK** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:47 pm

I am very much on the verge of selling my FZ-1 to place an all-in-one shot to go AGP 50 trim, BFMIC, 3" exhaust, and fuel.