Wing discussion and the explaination of downforce

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MyNeonSaysHi
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Wing discussion and the explaination of downforce

Post by MyNeonSaysHi » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:07 am

I am really not a fan of wings on any fwd car.. I always have been told there is no use for a wing on a low powered fwd car.. but is there? I was talking to this one guy on another forum, he owns a ZX2. He told me this:
as for the wing in the rear and downforce for fwd and rwd cars. the stock wing i would say is useless, on both cars. as for the tall "ricey" aluminum and carbon ones. yeah they help add downforce. they may look weird but they can greatly help hold the car down during high speeds. think of the ZX2 and im sure the neon has similar charactistics stock. throw it into a corner doing 40 or so. the car doesnt want to turn, it almost acts like its turning the opposite way you have the wheel turned. thats understeer, too much weight in the front, naturally its the first weight thrown to the outside when cornering.

rwd cars are a bit more balanced depending on the car. a lot of times because they have several hundred more pounds of weight in the back, and a little less in the front, or at least a smaller weight ratio from the front to rear. this makes their cars usually better for such things as road racing, but can be dangerous because they have oversteer, where the back end comes around and can cause you to spin...

now to tie this together. what does a wing do? next time your on the highway, stick your arm out the window and hold it somewhat straight. hold your hand out flat so its horizontal and the wind really doesnt affect your hand does it? start turning your hand so the wind is hitting your palm. notice how the closer to verticle you get the more the wind presses back? this is downforce. now consider a wing being about twice that wide and much wider... see how much pressure the wind/air is pressing down on the wing and the car? we are talking a couple/few hundred pounds of pressure pushing the rear down depending on how the wing is set up. this will also help keep that unloaded rear wheel from coming off the ground... the more rubber you have in contact with the ground, the more grip and control you can have over the car...

hope everyone enjoyed my little lesson... im sure with the calculus class im taking i will be able to give you a more accurate estimate of the downforce pressure on a given sized wing in a few weeks
Sounds pretty good, but is it true? I would like to hear some opnions here on this matter... Does it actually serve a big purpose....
Thanks.
Last edited by MyNeonSaysHi on Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by glasswars » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:40 am

It makes perfect sense, but how fast do exactly need to be going for it to have a really usefull effect on the rear of a car? (Talking FWD wise) Rwd yes, but, I'd rather just put bricks in my trunk than have a huge aluminum wing.. even if they do something I'd still perfer the look of the stockers or an AVS/PVO (which I got in the mail today :) ) spoiler.. but overall, his idea is logical.
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Post by SolarYNeon » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:42 am

Well from a technical view he IS right.

But then again, civics cant get past forty :roll: haha.

Really, only wings like that he's talking about would only be practical on indy cars and what not. Look at Formula 1 racing and stuff similar to vehicles going that high of speeds where aerodynamics plays a REALLY big part on the control of your vehicle.

Those goofy ass wings IMO would really do nothing for you in performance because, well they're "generic" and are just mass produced for anything that has a trunk. Whilst the foils on the F1 vehicles are designed specifically, and probably tested in a wind tunnel for all I know, to keep those cars planted on the ground.

Phew.

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Post by Nick Drake » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:46 am

1. I don't know what RWD cars that guy's talking about, but the ones I've been in are always unbalanced, so the owners usually put some sand bags in the trunk to get it more balanced, so yes a wing could help that out.

2. You'd have to be going MAD fast for a wing to help you cornering. because you're generally not going highway speeds (like his hand out the window thing) during corners where you lose traction.

I say you'd get much more out of some good tires than an aluminum wing.
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Post by joelrgr » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:46 am

my 15" solo baric makes more downforce than a ricey aluminum wing

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Post by 03blackrt » Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:39 am

Wings produce mad downforce yo! Strap one on and feel the difference! You'll out handle everything on the road.
Last edited by 03blackrt on Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BlackRoseRacing » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:08 am

^^^
BS, you just copied and pasted that from another site :lol:

Joking, my man that is some GREAT info! I honestly dont see anyone your age around here with that much knowledge on aerodynamics. Good luck with your career :wink:

As for the wing thing, I agree with others, just get the little aero spoiler or just leave your stock one alone...
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Post by kc2005ptgt » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:53 am

I am so glad I read all that - now I know that my spoiler I bought for looks is strictly for looks :rofl: Thanks for the great info, man!
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Post by MoxHair » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:24 am

03blackrt

That was the best explaination ever!! I've been trying to explain that to ricer type kids all my car lovin' life.. they usually just stare blankly at me. lol
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Post by MyNeonSaysHi » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:57 am

Hands down 03blackrt that was some great info! Thanks. And to everyone else for their input!

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Post by caustic neon » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:53 pm

this info calls for a sticky, sticky, sticky.

Oh and did I say STICKY
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Post by 03blackrt » Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:15 pm

Yo, yo, yo, whats up?
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Post by CA180 » Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:19 pm

^dude, you rock! thats what i'm goin to minor in when i go to school. I want to do more fabrication, so i'm gonna major in mechanical engineering.... cool stuff
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Post by J-Villa » Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:23 pm

there is only like 3 neons i like without wings...otherwise i can't stand neons without wings....but i hate srt wings
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Post by dblsg » Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:33 pm

i guess i should get rid of the 6 ft wing i just bought :(
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Post by OB » Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:01 am

^lmfao

good write up 03blackrt, that was very interesting, but somehow i already knew that. I read a lot (magazines mostly) about car related stuff and, at least a FEW of them come up with some article called "does a wing really make a difference" (or something similar haha). After reading several pieces on aerodynamics, ive deduced that wings on street cars are 99% for aesthetics, and maybe for a little downforce when cruising at 100+ on the freeway or at the track.
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Post by 03blackrt » Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:58 am

Get yourself an e-bay special. They realy work....
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Post by esteinmaier » Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:01 pm

You may be able to hold more speed through a turn at 70mph, but how much is the added weight reducing your ability to get to speed in a sufficient length of time? How about the aerodynamic drag? You may be getting 300lbs of downforce, but how much forward drag?

Then we get into the effects of the downforce not only influencing tire friction, but what about the changes in suspension load? More load generally will put your suspension into a position of a higher spring rate, making your suspension more rigid, and reducing weight transfer to the outside wheel. Good for stability, bad for grip. Which is why RWD cars can make faster than 1 second 60' times, and FWD cars can't.

All this is why Formula cars do this for "Tuning" and not enhancement. You change something in your car's dynamics, and you're always losing something to gain something. More grip in the back makes understeer, etc.

If you want a big park bench on your car, think about why you want it. Then realize that a case of beer and a good porn is probably a better investment for most people on here.
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Post by 03sxt » Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:08 pm

What a bunch of nerds. :lol:








Very interesting information, though! :thumbup:

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Post by 03blackrt » Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:17 pm

Ohh noes....
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Post by quicksilvr » Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:47 pm

Nicecly written 03blackrt. 8) It's always nice to see real numbers and formula's....instead of just "guesses based on vague knowledge" :lol:
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Post by lolelectricbluesxt » Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:17 pm

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I like my wings with spicy BBQ sauce and ranch personally. :wink:

Oh wait, wrong wing discussion. :?
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Post by 03blackrt » Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:18 am

Meow....
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Post by OB » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:21 am

while we're at it, id like to ask a question about drag coeffecients. In regards to body mods (my front lip and skirts, for example), ive read that the drag coeffecient of a car can be lowered with simple exterior mods. though the aerodynamic difference is surely minimal, what sort of gains/losses are involved? wanna break it down for us 03black?
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Post by 03blackrt » Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:33 am

Go, go, gadget!
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Post by OB » Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:02 am

yeah, i know theyre not actually wind tunnelled or anything, but would u agree that they probably are better aerodynamically than stock? I know very little about these things, but it seems that even if they made a .001% difference, then they are considered "aero" parts, since they do indeed make SOME change to a cars downforce/drag. also, what is the definition of drag coeffecient? what does that actually mean? I see the phrase a lot in magazines and books. thanks :wink:
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Post by 03blackrt » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:24 am

Huh???
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Post by 2k2patriotblueneon » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:04 am

Damn I just fell asleep reading this and now my boss yelled at me for sleeping on the job. :lol: But seriously anyone who knows about cars knows that spoilers don't do squat at normal driving speeds.....thats ricer logic. :lol:
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Post by anomalous0 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:54 pm

sorry to ressurect a dead topic......but someone mentioned smaller spoilers aiding in laminar flow...laminar flow=less drag=more gas mileage...and AFAIK small things can help with that a bit...does anyone know what sort of spoiler design would be best for this? I'm personally drawn to the little lip spoilers (forget where I saw them but I go for subtle) but I have no idea what that would do as far as affecting aerodynamics
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Post by 03blackrt » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:44 pm

Trying to make an aprecitable change in the aerodyanmics of a neon would be like trying to take a ham and cheese sandwitch from mama Cass in 1974.

^^^ Good comment, huh?

Man, I so wish this thread would die and rot in the bowels of 2gn purgatory. Maybe someday I will do a well prepared write-up, but not anytime soon.
Last edited by 03blackrt on Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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