Brake fluid

OB · Post by OB » Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:11 am

So im currently working my way through the Brakes portion of my education a UTI, and ive seriously begun to consider swapping the standar DOT3 fluid with some higher grade DOT4. any of you guys have experience with this? I havent even checked the serv manual to see if its safe to do (it usually specifies either dot3 only or that either one is acceptable), but i remember someone saying it was doable. Figured since my car has 20k miles on it, and my instructors said 30k is a good time to change the fluid (for max performance, that is), i might as well go for something with a higher boiling point, reducing my chances of brake fade causing air to buildup in the system. I drive my car pretty damn hard sometimes, mainly cornering thru some of the backroads i found near my apt. Brake fade is a major concern of mine, seeing as how my stock brakes arent meant for the beating they sometimes go thru. I do have Hawk HPS pads up front, but other than that theyre stock.

Also, if i wanted to upgrade my rear drum shoes, what would be the best replacements to go with? what are my options performance wise? or are stock replacements pretty much the end of the line for drum brakes?

FTWNeon · Post by **FTWNeon** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:56 pm

I've been running DOT4 with stainless lines and Hp Plus pads without any issues

ewetho · Post by **ewetho** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:30 pm

Castrol Dot 3 is also Dot 4 rated, and Valvoline Dot 3 also has a very HIGH Boil temp. Heck even Fords brake fluid is like 505 degree boil over. So just get some quality brake fluid like Ford or Valvoline Synthetic fluid. You could also get stainless lines which would help with pedal feel.

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:35 pm

Let's just say it took several (10-12ish) 100MPH ish hard stops before the stock brakes began to fade. Last brake change I did the first ever fluid flush on the Neon. Happy I did. I just switched to synthetic DOT3. Not because it's super special or anything, it was on sale

It does have a slightly higher boiling point though.

You can upgrade to DOT4, but don't use DOT5.

Here's a nice little article.

http://web.quipo.it/tr4corner/manutenzi ... ot4%20dot5'

Save yourself some time and buy a vacuum brake bleeding setup. SOOOO much faster and easier.

Matt

OB · Post by OB » Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:58 pm

id do it at school. we have all the newest crazy machines and gizmos, so it should be easy as pie. yeah no dot 5, that shits silicone based isnt it. anyone else using dot 4 successfully?

MyNeonSaysHi · Post by **MyNeonSaysHi** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:17 pm

Dot 4 is pointless in our cars... It just has a higher boiling point thats it... Brake fade... is that something to worry about? Plus you have to change it more often.... Whatever floats your boat man.

OB · Post by OB » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:58 pm

who says u have to change it more often? yeah it has a higher boiling point, which will make the fluid less likely to develop air bubbles during super hot brake temps. its not like im tryin to make a huge diff, but even subtle mods can help round out the car and make it perform just a hair better. the way i see it, if something needs to be changed/fixed, then its a good time to upgrade. Same deal with shit like clutches, plug wires, etc.

CA180 · Post by **CA180** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:13 am

Probably the biggest issue with brake fluid is its ability to absorb water and condensation. Dot 4 is less likely to do such. Changing brake fluid is something that should be done atleast once every two years, more if you road race regularly. Over heating break fluid breaks it down making it less usefull. DOT 5, even though it is synthetic, absorbs water more thatn DOT 3 and 4. I would probably recommend DOT 3 for those who do not excert excessive amounts of strain on their brake system. DOT 4 would be better for those who race often. Some racers change their brake fluid after every race bevause it breaks down so quickly... which leads to brake fade and unnecessary ware on key brake components.

By the way orageblastsxt... how do you like UTI... i thought about going to the Houston campus,,, but I cant afford to move there. Wish I could.

OB · Post by OB » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:21 am

well said CA180, that is absolutly correct. I find myself smashin corners at least 2-3 times a week, often for extended periods of time (as far as spirited driving is concerned), and I feel that upgrading to DOT 4 would be overall beneficial, especially considering my fluid could use a change anyhow. my main concern is whether or not DCX has deemed the hydraulic system in my car capable of the higher spec fluid. I know some cars are DOT3 only, while many can accept either one.

oh, and CA, UTI is great, im learning so much so fast. its damn expensive, but im told it will pay itself off well in the future. regular college just wasnt for me, and this seemed like a killer alternative!

Post by **Diablo0** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:26 am

I'm running some DOT4 synthetic Valvoline stuff I got at Autozone. It has a lower ability to absorb water which is brake fluids biggest issue like CA180 just said.

A lot of people do highly suggest using Motul 600 RBF fluid for racing purposes.

OB · Post by OB » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:36 am

where would i get motul fluid? im gonna look into that, ive been meaning to and u just reminded me.

Post by **Diablo0** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:37 am

Look it up on Google, I just found it here...

http://www.speedwerks.com/catalog/c0m0b ... n0p2565np0

OB · Post by OB » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:42 am

found motuls main site, it has all kinds of shit on there. so the RBF 600 will work well in my system? it says that it is specially formulated to work well in ABS systems, but from what i understand, it will work just fine in non ABS as well. I dont see why it wouldnt.

MyNeonSaysHi · Post by **MyNeonSaysHi** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:55 am

I talked to my brakes teacher who is a master technician, he has worked at Porsche, Audi, and Gm dealerships and he says theres no point for me to change over to Dot 4.... He says you have to change it more often... Also says it in the book... So IDK.

CA180 · Post by **CA180** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:42 pm

Hmmm... I never heard that you would have to change it more often. I have always been told the opposite.

I better look into this a little better.

EDIT: Wow, crap!!! I guess i was mistaken regarding DOT5!....
I guess mt thinking and my typing werent working togther that night

Anyhow, this is some simple info i found for now... I'll try and find more in depth when i get a chance

"The U.S. Department of Transportation issues specifications for brake fluid. The three main types of brake fluid now available are DOT3, DOT4 and DOT5. DOT3 and DOT4 are glycol-based fluids, and DOT5 is silicon-based. The main difference is that DOT3 and DOT4 absorb water, while DOT5 doesn't.
One of the important characteristics of brake fluid is its boiling point. Hydraulic systems rely on an incompressible fluid to transmit force. Liquids are generally incompressible while gases are compressible. If the brake fluid boils (becomes a gas), it will lose most of its ability to transmit force. This may partially or completely disable the brakes. To make matters worse, the only time you are likely to boil your brake fluid is during a period of prolonged braking, such a drive down a mountain -- certainly not the best time for brake failure!

As a DOT3 or DOT4 brake fluid absorbs water, its boiling point decreases. It can absorb water from the air, which is why you should avoid opening your car's brake fluid reservoir. For the same reason, you should always keep containers of brake fluid tightly sealed.

DOT5 fluid does not absorb water. This means the boiling point will remain relatively stable, but it also means that any water that does get into your brake system will tend to form pure water pockets, which could cause brake corrosion.

Two other important things about brake fluid: DOT3 and DOT4 eat paint, so don't spill it on your car. Also, none of the different types of brake fluid should be mixed. They can react badly with each other and corrode your brake system. "

OB · Post by OB » Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:37 am

yeah thats correct about the DOT 3 and 4 being hygroscopic. Thing is, DOT 5 is silicone based, meaning it is basically not compatible with a car not designed for use with it from the factory. However, DOT 5.1 reverted back to the standard mixture, but has a much higher boiling point. Ive read thru the service manual, and it highly recommended NOT using anything but DOT3 on any brake system for the 05 PL platform. So im stickin with DOT3. Like raul said, its not really that big a deal on the street, so im not gonna pursue it any further.

CA180 · Post by **CA180** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:30 am

^ I would probably have to agree with you... But I might look furthere into it, atleast for the info. If its doable, and may even gain a slight increase in performance, then I might go for it.

OB · Post by OB » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:41 am

same here, but the manual says DOT three only, very specifcally. I even asked my brakes instructors what they thought, and they said to follow OEM spec, of course. I inquired as to whether or not a DOT 3 system could handle DOT 4 based on chemical compatibility, and they werent sure, but suggested leaving it be. Keep in mind that these guys are fix-it gurus, not race car builders, so its still up in the air.

Post by **Diablo0** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:44 am

It used to be with some fluid manufactures you couldn't mix DOT 4 with DOT 3 systems but some fluids the maufactures have made it so you now can mix it so as long as you make sure the fluid is able to be mixed or used in DOT 3 systems you should be okay.

OB · Post by OB » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:00 am

Not too sure about that, all real DOT 3 is EXACTLY the same. thats what makes it DOT 3. same with DOT4, 5, 5.1 etc. Theyre all regulated to one formula, and sold under different names. I confirmed this with my instructor in brakes, and he said that any deal like "synthetic" fluid is just advertising, cuz ALL DOT fluid is synthetic. anything u might have seen is probably similar, but the only interchangeable fluid is that of the same number. 3 with 3, 4 with 4, and so on. Thats that

ewetho · Post by **ewetho** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:00 pm

Oh really DOT 3 is DOT 3 Hhhmmmmmmmmmm.

Try http://www.castrol.com/castrol/productd ... Id=6004007

That is both a certified DOT 3 and DOT 4 with a 509 degree F boil protection. What is the DOT 3 spec?

Valvoline has both Pyroil DOT 3 with a 409 boil and Synpower DOT 3 and DOT 4 that boils at 503.

So how are they the same???? Tell me please. Research tells different. Valvoline is good, Castrol is good. Warren, pyroil, regular DOT3 stuff is OK. The good stuff is definitely better.

************************************************************
My UTI instructors actually pointed out the difference.

skuttler · Post by **skuttler** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:41 am

so uh... how do I change my brake fluid? I did my rotors and pads like a couple of weeks ago and I've put nearly 30,000 miles on my car and doubt the person that owned it before me changed it ever based on what the air filter looked like. I think it's time. Is this something I can do in my driveway?

kc2005ptgt · Post by **kc2005ptgt** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:11 pm

OB - what about rear drum swap with srt or rt/acr disks? Is that outta the question for you (I know your a student, as am I so I know that $$$ thing

)?

Just a question. And our cars, I believe will take DOT4, I say just swap it over - no reason NOT to, unless you feel it will end up being a waste of money, right?

ewetho · Post by **ewetho** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:13 pm

DOT 4 is basically the same stuff but your car only requires DOT3. A good quality DOT 3&4 fluid would be great.

Every 2 years to remove absorbed moisture is a good rule of thumb for brake fluid exchange.

Last I did that exchange in a car as far as price what is a buck or 2 for a large bottle of fluid.

TomZ · Post by **TomZ** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:04 pm

OK. Lots of information and dis-information here. I did a lot of research a couple of years ago on this. DOT 5 is synthetic, silicone based. Silicone based fluids do not absorb water (as stated previously) the water does form "pockets", also as stated. As water is heavier than silicone fluid, it tends to collect in the lowest point of the system, the calipers. Under spirited driving, that water can boil, creating steam! Yikes! Uncommanded braking! Not to mention the corrosion (as stated). Grassroots Motorsports, the SCCA magazine has some archived articles or links (I don't remember for sure) on brake fluids. There are a variety of fluids, compounded for different purposes. Race fluids have very high boiling points, but absorb a lot of water, quickly. Racers bleed fluids frequently, so it doesn't matter. Street use fluids don't absorb water as readily, but have lower boiling points. Notice the inverse relationship? It's like tires...the grippy ones don't last, and the long wearing ones don't grip. The articles I read had charts showing the various fluids and their characteristics for water absorption and boiling points, by brand. I found the ATE Blue a good compromise for a street driven car.

OB · Post by OB » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:00 am

^all good information. no arguement about dot 5 here.

ewetho, from what ive read, DOT boiling points are set by the SAE. they have specific values that make them what they are. Clearly there are other properties that set them apart, such as DOT5 being silicone based, and all the others not. and i have no doubt that some may be produced with varying boiling points by different companies. I only have 2 points: firstly, one DOT specification should not be mixed with another, and secondly, OEM spec is ALWAYS the way to go. anyone whos gone to UTI should know this and live by it. if it says DOT3, then DOT3 it is. However, im not argueing that DOT 4, for example, isnt safe for use in the neons dot3 specific system. Common sense tells us that hydraulic pressure is hydraulic pressure, and two very similar fluids should have no problem serving the same purpose. whether or not DOT4 is safe for the neon system depends entirely on what chemicals it has in it, and what the neon's system is made of. things like viscosity could also come into play if they were different between fluids (which i dont think they are in this case).

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:32 am

some useless information for you guys:

Here in the UK you can't really buy DOT3 very easily ... if you were to go into an auto parts shop and ask for DOT3 they'd probably laugh and ask why.

DOT4 and DOT5.1 are all thats available over here from 99% of shops

sunburnedaz · Post by **sunburnedaz** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:38 am

bored and digging up old posts?

darthroush · Post by **darthroush** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:32 pm

You guys also have the Autobahn and Nürburgring. We've got 70MPH highways...

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:43 pm

sunburnedaz wrote:bored and digging up old posts?

Nothing wrong with that once in a while !!

Hell, I wouldn't have known this thread existed, if it wasn't for the bump.....

- Nick