ABS Question

danman132x · Post by **danman132x** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:55 am

Last night it just finished raining, so I decided to test out my ABS on some wet isolated road. Well I'm going about 30 and push the brakes in hard. I don't know if it's normal, but the pedal pulsed back with some force to my feet. It literally made my legs vibrate. It also made some (not so normal) sounds that are hard to describe, but I want to know if this is normal. What kind of symptoms do you get when the abs kicks in? On dry roads I can stop on a dime, but it feels as if my old neon without ABS stopped better under hard braking without the ABS system.

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:03 pm

yes, thats normal.

Post by **jonnymopar** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:43 pm

danman132x wrote:...but it feels as if my old neon without ABS stopped better under hard braking without the ABS system.

That's because it probably did. Glad not to have ABS on my 03.

MyNeonSaysHi · Post by **MyNeonSaysHi** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:21 pm

you can control the car better in ABS, we watched a video at school on ABS, and ABS > Non-ABS when it comes to tests.

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:26 pm

^^^ unless your really good at braking, which most arn't. but I prefer my 4-wheel disc.

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:07 pm

There are a few instances where non ABS will stop faster.

Personally I'm not a fan of ABS or traction control. Takes all the fun and skill out of driving. At least it's keeping the majority of soccer moms and their SUV's out of the ditch

I still haven't even owned a car that has it.

Matt

glasswars · Post by **glasswars** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:10 pm

No ABS for meeee.

atom · Post by **atom** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:57 pm

What you described dan is exactly what abs does

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:41 pm

^^^
Agreed, my R/T is the first car I ever owned that had ABS, and as far as the comment goes about skilled driving using a non-abs car....I think my driving skills improved with the abs car since now im trying to handle it with the abs and traction control...fighting the computer......

OB · Post by OB » Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:16 am

fixitmattman wrote:There are a few instances where non ABS will stop faster.

Personally I'm not a fan of ABS or traction control. Takes all the fun and skill out of driving. At least it's keeping the majority of soccer moms and their SUV's out of the ditch

I still haven't even owned a car that has it.

Matt

agreed. abs ftl, I love my non abs brake system. Brakes work great, and as long as i dont stomp em in the rain, its all good. abs and traction control are designed for lazy A to B drivers who dont know how to drive. its to keep skill less drivers from killing themselves during a panic stop. the way i see it, the more control i have, the better.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:11 am

I agree with your comment too OB, but it seems that now I actually have to do more driving with it to keep the car under control....esecially on ice and snow...

hansken_yo · Post by **hansken_yo** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:15 am

I love my non abs brake system. Brakes work great, and as long as i dont stomp em in the rain, its all good. abs and traction control are designed for lazy A to B drivers who dont know how to drive. its to keep skill less drivers from killing themselves during a panic stop. the way i see it, the more control i have, the better.

Could not have said it better myself.

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:44 am

orangeblastsxt wrote: abs and traction control are designed for lazy A to B drivers who dont know how to drive.

Drum brakes are for those who don't take braking seriously.....

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:05 pm

Wanna have a stop off with my drum brakes?

Matt

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:08 pm

After about 50 cycles...

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:09 pm

Sure...

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:29 pm

alright. its on.

Post by **jonnymopar** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:05 pm

ABS falls into the same category as an automatic transmission for me personally. I feel that it's one more thing that impairs my ability to "be part of the car" while I'm driving. I want to know what the car's doing at all times and I want to have complete control of that. I don't want my car making educated guesses as to what I'm doing and why. If one of my wheels locks up, I adjust and it's fine. I have tires that kinda suck in the rain, so it does happen.

Maybe the Neon's ABS system is improved over past systems. I haven't had any experience with it. But most of the vehicles that I've driven with ABS (not just Dodge), the slightest bit of sand under one wheel during braking and the car would go bat shit like it was afraid you'd hit a brick wall.

But, in addition, Neons are not a great example to illustrate the benefits/drawbacks to ABS because on Neons, ABS = rear disc and non-ABS = rear drums (to my knowledge - if I'm wrong, please step in and correct me on that). Obviously, rear discs fade less than drums under autocross-like braking scenarios, but that has nothing to do with ABS.

Does it belong on SUV's and some trucks? Probably. On a nimble little car like this? I just don't see why.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:50 pm

While beating the hell out of my R/T the traction control allows me to do posi burnouts.....
When I hit a patch of ice, the abs kicks in but I still have to downshift and recorrect the car, hence me saying that im driving against the computer.....
The little features are nice, but low speed traction control sucks up here in WNY...I still have to reach over and shut it off to manually control the car...
As for abs, I agree with others, if I hit the brakes, I want my wheels to lock up! with abs I cant do that, so I have to work around it....

OB · Post by OB » Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:26 am

03blackrt wrote:
orangeblastsxt wrote: abs and traction control are designed for lazy A to B drivers who dont know how to drive.
Drum brakes are for those who don't take braking seriously.....

true.. to a point. however, my drums will out brake your discs anyday on the street. Its at the track during constant beating that the discs ability to dissipate heat truly shines. For me, doing an expensive disc swap for the rear just wouldnt be worth it at this point. My neon does a great job of slowing down considering the amount of power it makes. it simply isnt fast nor heavy enought to need rear discs. yet..

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:42 am

orangeblastsxt wrote: however, my drums will out brake your discs anyday on the street.

That sounds like a challenge. As I quote myself...

03blackrt wrote:alright. its on.

OB · Post by OB » Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:57 am

ok ok so maybe they wouldnt totally own your discs, but it is indeed a fact that drum brakes perform better than discs in regular conditions on the street. i realized that my post kinda made drums out to be top notch hardware, while thats not quite what i mean.

Neonisti2000 · Post by **Neonisti2000** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:23 am

On regular driving, whether city or highway, I agree with the statement that it's not that big of a difference in driveability if you're driving with either discs or drums.
But that drums are superior to discs on street, I don't think so.
And of course ABS is kinda needless if you can foresee the traffic so that there will be no close-ones...Then you won't have those 100feet long skid marks.

But in special conditions and countries where there are season's, ABS is an easy "life-insurance".
Like here in Finland, we got four seasons: winter (like 4months long), spring, summer and autumn.
Winter is pure hell sometimes. You can literally sometimes skate on the roads. Just think how it's like to drive on that. Freezed up tarmac and about 5-10cm of just rained snow is what makes me to wake up wintermornings when driving to work....

But seriously, ABS do come in handy in special/extreme circumstances.

In Finland, we also got a mandatory part in our driving school program were you get to drive your car on a closed circuit were they replicate these extreme conditions (ice, hard turns and so on...).
It lasts one day and you will definitely get to know and feel the difference between ABS and non-ABS car...
Because if and when you lock your brakes on a non-ABS car in wet or icey road, it's sayonara after that.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:12 am

^^^
Ditto...
Im in Fall(winter) here in WNY, after last thursday's snow storm that came through here, the abs and traction control helped. Especially when driving through 6inches of snowy,slushy, icey roads with summer tires on the car

Winter here in WNY kinda start around now and lasts until next April, or atleast thats about our average for crappy, snowy ,shitty weather...

Baal · Post by **Baal** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:35 am

ABS is just another nanny for poor drivers.

Is ok for soccer moms but for real car enthusiasts its retarded, just learn how to properly brake and not just stomp on the pedal.

with my current brake setup if press the pedal further than 2/3rd i will lock the brakes even on dry asphalt.

Just learn how to break and how to properly react even in panic situations, like a total tard will turn the steering wheel in a jerk spasmic motion that will send him out of controlthe same tard will stop on his pedal break, react smoothly and you will have no issues at all.

for anyone who understand the concept of ABS will be easy to realize that non-abs will ALWAYS stop faster if the right ammount of pressure is applied.

Also the "it handles better" its bullshit, if your brakes arent locked (wich never should) you can handle the car perfectly, if its on severe braking the only trouble you might experience is strong oversteer, wich you should experience also with ABS on.

Neonisti2000 · Post by **Neonisti2000** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:30 am

Baal wrote: Also the "it handles better" its bullshit, if your brakes arent locked (wich never should) you can handle the car perfectly, if its on severe braking the only trouble you might experience is strong oversteer, wich you should experience also with ABS on.

Uuumm.... So you're saying that ABS is bad or good?
Cause isn't that what you describe is what ABS do...
When you brake with force/panic, your tyres won't lock. In other words, you can handle the car perfectly.

Baal wrote: Just learn how to break and how to properly react even in panic situations, like a total tard will turn the steering wheel in a jerk spasmic motion that will send him out of controlthe same tard will stop on his pedal break, react smoothly and you will have no issues at all. .

Are you guys serious? So in that split second sudden situation where you have to react instantly, you are so good drivers and can be so calm that you push the brakes with just the right force, maybe 2/3 maybe little more???
So you are able to "calculate"/think the amount of force needed to make a emergency stop/brake so that the brakes won't lock? Regardless that there are many things to be considered, and the most important of them, your current driving speed...?

Ok, ok.... For street racers / racers, ABS is poison.
But for everyone else, it's just a very good safety feature. And it is very useful in normal driving, especially in winter.

hansken_yo · Post by **hansken_yo** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:38 am

I find it remarkable that ABS is such a debated topic outside the race industry. Series like the Speed World Challenge, and Rolex, and so on, have been looking to ban ABS, just b/c it makes for "stupid" drivers diving into Brake zones recklessly and or system failures. This has to attest something to the effects of ABS in the sense that professional drivers desire it. Regardless, I still like to think that I'm in control of my car and some computer isn't making an "educated guess." Also I think it forces me to remember the techniques I learned in drivers ed....hahahha. Though, there have been times where I've locked up (regardless of my skills) and made flat spots on my tires, which needless to say can suck for the smoothness of the ride. Hmmm. Ohwell. Just me thoughts.

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:56 pm

Neonisti2000 wrote:
Baal wrote: Just learn how to break and how to properly react even in panic situations, like a total tard will turn the steering wheel in a jerk spasmic motion that will send him out of controlthe same tard will stop on his pedal break, react smoothly and you will have no issues at all. .
Are you guys serious? So in that split second sudden situation where you have to react instantly, you are so good drivers and can be so calm that you push the brakes with just the right force, maybe 2/3 maybe little more???
So you are able to "calculate"/think the amount of force needed to make a emergency stop/brake so that the brakes won't lock? Regardless that there are many things to be considered, and the most important of them, your current driving speed...?

And it is very useful in normal driving, especially in winter.

I'm with baal, and I've been there and done that. It's called pedal feel. That's why every now and then you need to get out in your car in a safe area and give the brakes hell to feel where they lock up and how a car (especially your own) reacts under hard braking. Not only do you better know the limits of your car, but in my case it has paid off before. After the first major snow storm I get in my car and do the same thing so I know how my car is going to handle under typical winter conditions and how far you can push it before you get into trouble.

ABS or not, if you're trying to hard brake and steer at the same time you're not going to go where you want to go. ABS and traction control can really help if you're not a good driver, but if you know what you're doing, don't drive like a tool, and more importantly drive appropriately for the conditions you are more than fine. IMO if you need ABS for EVERYDAY winter driving, you need to start driving better.

Matt

Neonisti2000 · Post by **Neonisti2000** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:53 pm

fixitmattman wrote:IMO if you need ABS for EVERYDAY winter driving, you need to start driving better.

Matt

Thanks for the advice. I didn't know that my driving skills were so poorly...

Yes, I've also been there and done that. And some more.
I find it odd that so many seem to think themselves as a great driver. I'm not saying that you aren't. I don't know you or your driving skills. But how many actually has that much driving experience that can be so foreseeing?
I'm not a GREAT driver. Great drivers are those who does driving for living.

I never have had a car accident on sivil roads, on "normal" driving.
But I have wrecked and crashed half a dozen cars on circuit and rally driving. It's not a nice feeling when you lost control of the car completely, believe me. But when you have done it couple times, you get somehow "used" to it.

And for the pedal feel and anticipation of circumstances...
Of course one can practice and develop driving skills, for sure. But there are so many variables... Even if you test how the car react on one day, like after snowing, the feeling and conditions can be very different on the next day...
All I'm saying is that ABS is a good feature to have. It's an upgrade for brake system. For normal driving.
Like Baal said: "if your brakes arent locked (wich never should) you can handle the car perfectly" = ABS.
Racing is a whole different story like I said.

Anyhow, to get back to the matter, the first post that Dan wrote was a good example of how ABS should work. That's it.

Baal · Post by **Baal** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:36 pm

ABS is a MUST for the avg car user, for racing its stupid.

All the Renault Clio RS wich has factory ABS get their systems off to race on rallies.

ABS in racing would require a much different configuration, since regular ABS is designed to start pulsating at X pedal pressure, it depends on the surface, a regular ABS will start pulsating waaaay before you would loose traction on dry asphalt, because if it doesnt, your car would never pulsate on wet one.

And about not stomping on the brakes, well what can i say... i dont, ive taught myself not to, like a body guard doesnt dunk when he hears a BANG.

As far as driving skills well as far as i know im the one who races more seriously than anybody ive heard in the forum, so yeah i know how to properly brake, actually i think its my best attribute when racing, i let the car go far far far into the braking zone.

2GN.ORG

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