Custom intake manifold discussion, change of plans...lol

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:38 pm

BlackRoseRacing wrote: As for the other info above,03blackrt is in college for training about this exact info, so keep the input coming people

I'm enjoying this educated "argument", as Josh already graduated with his ME, and 03blackrt is probably finishing his degree in AE (iirc). I think we should make both designs and dyno test them.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:59 pm

For now im going to build a box style until my other materials show up. The above pics are as of now. 4" plenum at input beveling down to a 3" towards the rear. The input opening on it now is 2 3/4 inch Vs the 2 1/4 as before. The idea on the mockup now allows for a stock input connection or a large one like on it now. The map sensor is mounted, vaccum ports are in position and the intake runners are blended in like:

C in the picture, but im working on blending it in more like D...

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:04 pm

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:25 pm

^^^
Exactly, D in the above picture....

turbodudey · Post by **turbodudey** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:32 pm

Velocity stacks where? In the plenum...

While at an international SAE competition in Detroit, MI last year, I talked to a design engineer from Ford. He said, and I quote, "To perform well, the runner entrance in a plenum must have a velcity stack."

I'll try to get some CFD analysis on the velocity stack for ya...

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:42 pm

I still don't see that being a good design for flowing air. The only way that could be good is if the pulsating flow (and pulsating pressure) is tuned somehow by it, but I dont think it would be. But for shear flowing ability, I still don't see the advantage. I know velocity stacks are good, but it will only hurt the flow to extend the runner into the plenum and have the radius exced 90 degrees. But with a plenum wall behind the stack it is still going to behave like a reentrant.

kc2005ptgt · Post by **kc2005ptgt** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:48 pm

So lemme get this straight, BRR, you are actually going to make a new intake for sale? Will it have a 60mm opening for adapting directly onto a 60mm tb? Also, what kind of materials you using? I assume not the plastic above, but more like... aluminum? metal? SS?

Sorry, I read, but I am under the impression that you are going to design your own, new, intake system for the neon - and also, will this be for mag motor or standard?

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:06 pm

^^^
Both, one for standard and one for magnum so we all have an affordable upgrade. I'm still in the "EARLY" stages of getting a design done, and the first one im working on is going to be for a magnum motor since thats what is in my car.
As for intake openings, im hoping on having the design setup so you can bolt on a stock TB size opening for the stock bellows tube and have an adapter also included for when you upgrade to a larger TB you have the option of the larger intake opening.
As for a final intake manifold, that will be down the road yet after testing and hopefully a dyno run. The final intake manifold is going to be either aluminum or a sheetmetal style. The prototypes are going to be plastic.
The magnum manifold is going to have a minimum of a 10" runner length to move peak torque upto roughly 6500rpm. Where as the Non-Magnum intake im going to try to move peak torque from 4800 to 5500-6k rpm.
This will help out in racing situations where the motors stop pulling hard around 5k rpm(hopefully in theory)
The ghetto blaster intake:
http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?t ... r&start=0

teamliviD · Post by **teamliviD** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:28 pm

PICS FOUND

Enjoy!

white2000neon · Post by **white2000neon** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:26 pm

The people worried about drivability with a box-style really shouldn't be. The length of the runners in BRR's design are a fairly decent length so bottom end losses won't be drastic. His design is very similar to the design of my R/T Ernie intake manifold. I love that intake. Awesome throttle response and pulls like a raped ape past 5k all the way up to 7.5k (thanks afx/r ecu) with very minimal bottom end losses. Yes my car is a daily driver and has plenty of torque down low to scoot around town. If he makes this IM i would suggest that a lot of you guys buy it especially if your looking to do more mods in the future.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:43 am

R/T Ernie intake manifold:

This is the first time I even seen pics of the R/T ernie intake manifold. The design idea looks similar to what im working on, but on mine the intake runners are centered more, TB hook up will be a bolt on flange so you have flexability for upgrades. Now that I think about it, im wondering if I should make the end of the inake manifold ready to accomidate a larger Jeep 4.0 TB:

or a mustang TB:

and here is a pic of a 1GN from the ORG using a ford tb:

And here is another link to more intakes:just found this at 6:30am this morning, dang it...most of his designs are like what im trying to do, now im wondering if its worth the time and effort. By the sounds of things he is charging around $300 for SOHC intake manifolds. Im going to PM him to find out exact prices and I'll post the info here.

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?t=259775

Mr Josh Zombie · Post by **Mr Josh Zombie** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:32 am

Hell, just recreate the R/T intake manifold, and make it shiny... I'll buy it.

I just need more bling in the engine bay. Screw HP gains.
They made turbos for that.

bad04srt · Post by **bad04srt** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:28 pm

but opi that requires using an actuator and a WOT and RPM switch

all_motor_mike · Post by **all_motor_mike** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:38 pm

whats up all, BRR asked me to come on here and say a few things. so....... i can do pretty much whatever u want for an intake setup heres som pics and some vids of the itb's on put on last night.......

in car acceleration vid and vid of me opening up the t-bodies while idling........

http://s125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/ ... itb042.flv

driving fairly normal on the way back from the video above......

http://s125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/ ... itb043.flv

pretty much the only difference is the tube on the end of the manifold for the t-body to mount to.

sohc long runner.........

sohc short runner.......... (on my car)

ITB's are done.

mike

Mr Josh Zombie · Post by **Mr Josh Zombie** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:41 pm

How about make something that's chromed and can attach to my 60mm TB?

(I'm show, not go.)

kc2005ptgt · Post by **kc2005ptgt** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:17 pm

mike, that ITB setup is sweet! Few questions...
-What tb's did you use for that?
-What is the driving like for Daily?
-Also, what numbers are you looking at for gains?
-And that sohc short runner, is that better for all through the power band increase performance or just top end?
-If top, how high up will it pull??
-Do you need an after market ecu or rev limit remover?

!Sorry, I know, lotsa questions!

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:19 pm

sweet he finally made it over here

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:24 pm

Hey hey all_motor_mike is here! Woo hoo!

I've been following your stuff over on neons.org for a long time...well, since you thought about doing that group buy, and getting some serious business out of the whole intake fabrication thing.

Glad to see you over here, welcome, and I hope we can make some kick-butt intakes. I

those itb's. I want some. Is the throttle response liveable for a car that's still a daily? Cause as much as I want my car to go from DD to hobby car, it prolly ain't happening real real soon. I can put up with some herky jerky and driveline lash from having an intake that works like a switch...but I really want to know how bad it honestly is.

nofrills05 · Post by **nofrills05** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:44 pm

I love the ITB's !!!!

Some good ideas have been brought up. I will be watching this thread very closely.

bad04srt · Post by **bad04srt** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:24 pm

the ITBs will be jerkier than a normal TB....also for the ITB are you running a tree or what?

all_motor_mike · Post by **all_motor_mike** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:06 pm

kc2002acr wrote:mike, that ITB setup is sweet! Few questions...
-What tb's did you use for that?
-What is the driving like for Daily?
-Also, what numbers are you looking at for gains?
-And that sohc short runner, is that better for all through the power band increase performance or just top end?
-If top, how high up will it pull??
-Do you need an after market ecu or rev limit remover?

!Sorry, I know, lotsa questions!

1. 52mm oem t-bodies
2. well i only test drove it around last night and the throttle is touchy as hell. theres alot of vacuum behind the threottles when they are shut so when u go to hit the gas it feels like it sticks kinda, so when u put enoiugh pressure into it to move the throttles it will actuall snap open on u and ur tire light up

then u let off really quick and the damne throtles snap shut.......... so u buck a little bit there when starting out. u need to get really good at feathering the pedal needless to say.
3. gains............ depend on the setup i guess anywhere from 10 to 25 whp im thinking
4. short runner is definitly top end N/A or all around good for turbo app........... i had that one pictured above on my car for the last couple months until i put the itb's on.
5. until ur engine runs out of its power band, depending on mods that........... that answer will vary
6. no after market computer is necessary for any of the manifolds as long as its tuned correctly (mainly the itb's a/f controller will help out there) the plenum manifolds work fine with a stock computer.

quicksilvr wrote:Hey hey all_motor_mike is here! Woo hoo! I've been following your stuff over on neons.org for a long time...well, since you thought about doing that group buy, and getting some serious business out of the whole intake fabrication thing.

Glad to see you over here, welcome, and I hope we can make some kick-butt intakes. I those itb's. I want some. Is the throttle response liveable for a car that's still a daily? Cause as much as I want my car to go from DD to hobby car, it prolly ain't happening real real soon. I can put up with some herky jerky and driveline lash from having an intake that works like a switch...but I really want to know how bad it honestly is.

practice makes prefect (tuning definitly help though

)

white2000neon · Post by **white2000neon** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:22 pm

I think you should start making these itbs for the 2gn. I think you will get a lot of business out of it.

all_motor_mike · Post by **all_motor_mike** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:09 am

bad01neon wrote:the ITBs will be jerkier than a normal TB....also for the ITB are you running a tree or what?

looking into fixxing that right now.

and as for making them for a 2nd gen, well................ i wil have to get a car for mock up and what not first.

white2000neon · Post by **white2000neon** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:59 pm

Ok sweet. This is a definite must for people looking for maximun power out of their motor, just look at the sohc that dynoed 177whp with itbs a cam and some other little things.

all_motor_mike · Post by **all_motor_mike** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:41 pm

i know............... im seriously looking at the 225+ whp range for my single cam drag car.

white2000neon · Post by **white2000neon** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:48 pm

Wow thats higher than almost all the DOHC engine are making. I think the highest i ever saw on a DOHC was 209whp or something around there.

all_motor_mike · Post by **all_motor_mike** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:36 pm

remeber its going to be a drag car though, really high compression probably methanol for fuel and stuff of that nature. (im hoping even higher in HP than 225 actually)

mike

neon2ner · Post by **neon2ner** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:32 am

i notice guys, that all of these designs eliminate the 2 piece design of the stock magnum manifold. i realize that it would probably be more expensive and more of a challenge (as if these ones aren't challenging enough) to reproduce a better manifold while still retaining the 2 piece design of the stocker with the secondaries and all, plus possibly some clearance issues with the even larger plenum...

BUT, what about the people who want to run an aftermarket intake i.e AEM and 60mm TB with their new intake manifold, instead of getting a new intake fabbed up to still be a true cold air intake (given the inlet placement of all these prototypes, an aftermarket intake wouldn't work) or maybe they don't want a short ram. even further, they want to still have their secondaries and somewhat stock look and fitment. i realize that would be hard to make happen, but is it possible? would it be possible to produce a manifold without the secondaries, but locate the intake manifold inlet in the stock position so it could be used with the stock TB or 60MM tb, coupled to an aftermarket intake? in other words, having the throttle body in the stock position?

scott.

teamliviD · Post by **teamliviD** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:58 pm

all_motor_mike wrote:
ITB's are done.

mike

Did you chop up a Indy intake manifold to make these???? I would so swap you my full turbo set up for ITB's for my R/T!!

all_motor_mike · Post by **all_motor_mike** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:57 pm

yep it was made with an indy as a core. my production itb's if thats what u want to call it will be completely custom from flange to stacks.