my transmission

Adam_T · Post by **Adam_T** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:52 pm

okay so...i want to throw a full turbo system on my car (either srt 4 stock turbo set up with mattdog adapter palte, or a hahn set up)

but i am wondering...

is there a way to beef up my 4 speed automatic transmission to be able to support 250-275 hp? or am i just going to have to do a 5 speed MTX swap and then beef that one up.

Mr Josh Zombie · Post by **Mr Josh Zombie** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:21 am

You're motor wont be able to handle the boost up to 250+

If you want that kind of horse, you'll need to upgrade your engine as well.

Safely, our engines take about 5-6lbs of boost as a daily driver. That's roughly 200 - 210hp. You jump up to 10 - 13lbs of boost, and drive it often, chances are you're going to blow something else up as well.

Look into that first I'd suggest.

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:36 am

I'm guiding him through the boost part. He just needs drivetrain help, and I've never had an automatic, so I haven't done the research. But my recommendation was 4-5psi on the stock trans. He wants more power than that.

Mr Josh Zombie · Post by **Mr Josh Zombie** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:42 am

Ahhh, well, in that case, disregaurd my post then.
I have a 5spd, so I don't really know anything about ATX trannys.

I'd suggest a 5spd swap though and building up, just becuase I personally think 5spds are more fun to drive around on.

00element10 · Post by **00element10** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:12 pm

i've come across a lot of people that say the 3spd atx from the first gen has a lot more aftermarket support as far as beefing up the trans, clutch packs and stuff...you can spend 1000's of dollars on a atx race trans.

MoparNeonMan · Post by **MoparNeonMan** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:56 pm

esteinmaier wrote:He wants more power than that.

And people in hell want ice water.

Opi wrote:Safely, our engines take about 5-6lbs of boost as a daily driver. That's roughly 200 - 210hp.

Is that wheel hp or crank hp?

Mr Josh Zombie · Post by **Mr Josh Zombie** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:02 pm

*shrugs* Hell if I know. I personally don't have experience in boost. It's just what I've read and understood.

Adam_T · Post by **Adam_T** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:56 pm

hm...i was about to buy the MTX full swap parts for a 400 dollar pick up (guy lives in my state) but he wasnt selling it with....uhhh what did he say...

cable and axles didnt come with it.

so i was like " eh. nah "

but one of my close friends is a mechanic, and i asked him and he would install a full turbo system on my car for 200 bucks and do the MTX swap for 50. so thats cool...as long as i get all those parts. hahahaha.

still debating on the most reliable/safe turbo way to go on a 2.0.

2.0 liters can handle 250 hp you just gotta build it up the right way...and you will feel a lot better when kicking someones ass in a 2.0 liter neon than a srt4 that everyone knows will own them.

Adam_T · Post by **Adam_T** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:56 pm

oh...and one other thing...

i heard that to do a mtx swap...you have to get a different type of chip...and reflashing and what not for it to work?

please correct me if im wrong. cus i was lookin forward to buying the swap...gettin my friend put that shit in...and building the shit out of that mother fucker.

MoparNeonMan · Post by **MoparNeonMan** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:06 pm

IIRC the pcm are diffrent between the ATX and MTX....dont know whats diffrent but I believe they are.

So your aware you can duild the motor to hold 25...good...what about the trans? Is your clutch up to it? What FD do you have? Have you upgraded your drive axles?

Not trying to turn you off to a turbo.....but I want to help make you aware of exactly what will need to be replaced.

00element10 · Post by **00element10** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:07 pm

i want you to know that you can 'build' the 2.0 to handle a lot more than 250 hp, i also want you to know that you'd be lucky to make that kind of power for any decent period of time. Trust me.

MoparNeonMan · Post by **MoparNeonMan** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:20 pm

if he does a full bottom up build on the motor...i dont see how he wouldnt...Id think the trick is finding AM lower comp pistons.

Adam_T · Post by **Adam_T** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:30 pm

well if i got a turbo system i would be replacing the pistons and rods of course.

and i have an ATX 4 speed transmission. i had no idea i could build that up. i thought you could only build up the 01 3 speed ATX.

but if i could build up the ATX instead of doing a MTX swap...then that would be cool. let me know!

what i want for my car is right around 200-225 whp. really...i just want a shit load of torque.

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:34 pm

Well, I think he's still on the fence about how much power he really wants. Less than 200, tossing a turbo on would be fine. 200-400ish, better off grabbing an SRT swap and picking out a turbo. 400+, just depends on how you want your power.
But anyway, yea. The motor should be happy to somewhere around 230 to the wheels, although frankly, there aren't very many stock internaled 9.3:1 comp neon motors with boost and a good tune. Frankly, we have no idea where the 9.3:1 internals blow. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the stuff is a little stronger than their predecessors, seeing as the SRT came around at the same time. They are the same bore....

Adam_T · Post by **Adam_T** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:48 pm

hmm....well....

when you think about it. why would hahn make a turbo kit for 03-05 neons....that they gaurenteed me would put out between 250-275 depending on my other aftermarket parts......if they knew it was going to explode?

they said 8-9 psi would be fine but reccomended an aftermarket catback free flow exhaust. they said anything over 9 and all they had to change to make it run fine was the pistons and the rods.

if you look at their site...it says they ran uhh...i dunno, one of their systems on their neon 2.0L and they ran it for a full race season at 28-30psi and all they had to replace was very small parts.

basically with my whole " wanting what amount of power " is....

my mom has a 2006 Mercedes C230......215 HP and 205 torque (ballpark, i think thats what she said)

and i love that feeling that car gives me. at a stop light when i take her car out sometimes for her tune ups...i floor that mo fo to the floor and the shit just JETS off, and i love it.

main goal is to make my car feel like that. haha.

MoparNeonMan · Post by **MoparNeonMan** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:55 pm

IIRC back at N2K6 here in Texas we had Ed Peters (Neon God) talkin bout this kind of stuff...and I could have sworn that he said the 2.0 was good to about 200 crank hp....then things tend to break. Thats the main reason I havnt put my spray back on.

Adam_T · Post by **Adam_T** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:56 pm

weird how hahn would sell a kit that gives so much power if things are going to break instantly.

Post by **racer12306** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:08 pm

In my opinion...

If you want an auto that can definetly handle a lot of power you want the 3 speed. The neons.org FAQ sections says the 4 speed can handle 245 ft-lbs. But it does not have aftermarket support. (If you are using a stock PCM) You could put a manual trans PCM into the car and then put the 3 speed trans in it. Get a manual valvebody so you would shift it and not have to worry about hooking up the TV setup

Adam_T · Post by **Adam_T** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:11 pm

so my ATX transmission could handle 5 psi at around 200 HP and what not then....correct?

Post by **racer12306** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:17 pm

if the neons.org FAQ is right, and 5psi is less than 245........

shit, i just went back and looked at the FAQ. It says the 02-03 trans were capable of 245ft-lbs, but the 03+ is a different trans and it doesnt have a torque rating. sorry.

if you need it to get by, then you could probably use it. but don't push it too hard. but get your other trans in there asap.

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:42 pm

IIRC NeonJoe is running Hahn Stage 2 on his 2.0 Auto without issues. I think he's only running at 5-6lbs though.

You shouldn't have a problem handling them power levels in an auto. As has been mentioned, you'll be more likely to blow up the engine on stock internals then the auto tranny.

Adam_T · Post by **Adam_T** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:51 pm

what stock internals should i upgrade then?

i was figuring i should just get the hahn stage 2 system instead of trying to put everything together myself on the srt4 turbofold side of things....

run the hahn at around 4-5 psi until i start building up the engine really good.

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:09 pm

If they are saying the 4 speed isn't the weak point, then make 10psi on that motor. The lowered compression makes room for a little more boost and a bigger tuning window. Mine's seen about 11.5, and was quite happy. Come to think of it, so was I at the time. I was having all kinds of fun. That would make that little neon walk all over your mom's overpriced luxury car in a heartbeat.
Did you ever get around to asking Hahn for a quote for their system minus fuel? Chances are, you'd be at least a thousand cheaper on a megasquirt, and have lots more control.

00element10 · Post by **00element10** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:26 pm

the 250-275 they claim is an estimated number, it all depends on what you have done to the car, it says that underneath their claimed numbers......

it would be pointless to build up only certain parts of the motor at different times, unless you're talking about doing the top end, or doing the bottom end, then doing whichever you didnt do later on.

If i was you, i'd get the block bored out a little, and get a nice set of pistons and rods...then you should be good for a decent amount of boost, you can pretty much do whatever you want with the top end, but it depends on how you tune the car, how much boost you actually plan on running, and what else you have done to the car.

And with the atx you dont loose boost like you would on a 5spd...so everything's a little bit smoother, but not as fun to drive.

But you need to realize you're going to be without a car for a while, the stuff doesnt just go right on, there's minor fabrication work you have to do...yadda yadda yadda.

Adam_T · Post by **Adam_T** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:48 pm

TOPS i could not be without a car for more than a week. and a real close friend of mine just got married and is finally free a bunch of times now after honey moon and stuff and is a certified mechanic and one of the best in his class....

he said he would install everything for me fast/right/few hundred bucks. haha.

i can just rent another car for a bit.

and esteinmaier, i have heard some others say that 2gn axels can hold up a lot (dunno if that is true) but they can say it can handle a good amount of boost (around 260 hp).

and element: i dont know what the hell it means by rebuilding top end and low end and whatnot yet, i am about to start doing a lot of research on my engine and turbo systems before i end up doing this, but pretty much...after i throw on my exterior kit and up my suspension a little bit (all done within the next month if that)...

all my money is going away to save up and that time spent researching and deciding what turbo i want.

and esteinmaier...yeah the portfueler system knocked off 1200 dollars off that pricing of the 16g, and the intercooler it comes with too would knock down 449 more. hahaha. crazy huh?

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:56 am

The 2gn axles will hold all kinds of power if you're not wheel hopping. It all depends. I've got a picture of one that went on me at the track. They don't like wheel hop.

Btw, that's pretty expensive for a turbo, manifold, and boost piping. Keep in mind though, that you're gonna want intercooling later on. If you don't buy it in a kit, you're gonna have some cutting and welding to do to make your piping.

I think Hahn is thinking you want the RRFPR and booster pump setup for fuel. All stuff you won't even touch if you use MS. All you'll need is injectors, and the SRT stage 0s are dirt cheap used.

Well, let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Adam_T · Post by **Adam_T** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:48 am

oh yeah deff man. thats still like 3 grand.

i want around the 200 HP mark if not a tad higher. so i guess the srt4 setup would be a lot easier. i just dont want to take a saw and whatnot and do custom pipinng myself. i gaurentee i would blow something up if i did that. hahahaha.

maybe there are turbo piping kits somewhere? haha

Mr Josh Zombie · Post by **Mr Josh Zombie** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:58 am

From what I've read, seen damage pics of, our axels can hold a hefty amount... but not for too long. Around 250 to the wheels, with minimal wheel hop is the best you're going to do.

You're basically going to want to upgrade your top and bottom end, new axels, and build up your tranny a bit. For the cost of all of that, you could more than likely get a full on SRT swap in your car... which would be MUCH better off if you want a whole shit load of torque and HP.

Defentally look into a swap as well. But, I can guarentee you wont be able to do that by yourself, and will more than likely need to pay someone else to do it for you. (This is just from reading your posts)

Good luck man. That's all I can say.

Adam_T · Post by **Adam_T** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:03 am

yeah i know. my best friend is a mechanic and could do it.....i just need to start doing some research on what i really want to do fully.

im still leaning just for a 200-210 HP range on my 2.0 liter. im not a crazy racer or anything, and i think 200 hp is a decent amount for a DD.

Adam_T · Post by **Adam_T** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:24 am

okay....here goes:

Transmission: atx to mtx swap, and upgrading axles, clutch, blah blah or switching to the 3 speed ATX (most likely the swap though)

Engine:

-bottom end rebuild:
*8.6:1 Turbo - .020 piston set
* Rod Bearing Set
* Main Bearing Set
* JE Piston Rings
* Oil Pan Gasket Set (includes rear main seal)
* Oil Pump
* Eagle Specialty Forged Rods
* JE Pistons

-top end rebuild:
* 8 Intake Hydraulic Roller Rockers
* 4 Exhaust Hydraulic Roller Rockers
* Timing Belt
* Complete Head Gasket Set
* Crane SOHC Cam 158-0010 or 158-0012 or
158-0014.
* AEM Adjustable Cam Gear
* Crane Valve Springs and Retainers

Turbo System:

*Hahn stage-2 full turbo system.

^^^^all the above is what i would do if i wanted to stick with a 2.0 liter turbo system. and all of that up there including the hahn stage 2 system would be a beast like setup from what i can tell when researching everything on the parts. i could even upgrade to a larger turbo like a stage 3 hahn for more power. the thing is...the pricing for that would be...hm....4500 for turbo setup...1k for top end rebuild...1k for low end rebuild.....1.2k total for mtx swap and upgrades....so like 8k total. wow.

or.....srt4 swap. :-/ dunno the right price on that or what fabrication is needed to get that in my car and actually work.

dunno....just thought id show you guys that.